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New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

rte.ie

81–90 of 147 posts

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#81
post #2

> including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. I have a ~10 year old iPad Pro in perfect working condition. I can basically do nothing with it, and increasingly it can no longer even browse the internet because Safari is so outdated on it. So it will be waste. See similar story about Amazon bricking old Kindles: https://www.techradar.com/tabl…

The iPad is easily Apple worst product in terms of consumer friendliness. A lot of iPads shipped with way to little storage and I'd be surprised if Apple didn't know this.

The 10 year old iPad is still a perfectly capable device, but it suffers from the lack of an updated operating system and enough storage to apply a would be update. There are millions of people for whom an iPad is all the computing they'd ever need (many just use their phone as well), but the larger screen makes it a good option of online shopping, banking, emails, government documents, calendar and appointment booking. The price is reasonable, but it doesn't need to replace every three to five years to serve that purpose. Arguably I don't know how Apple would make money on it long term, but the lack of update should count against them in terms of their environmental image.

Apple is far from the worst, their phones updates for a long time, longer than most. Their laptops equally so. The iPad is very disappointing, because even if they issue an OS update, not all the devices can apply it, because of the lack of storage. Still better than my wife's old Samsung phone that was unable to apply any operating system update ever, because the storage was to limited.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#82
post #24

Good luck to hardware startups in Europe! For every developer now a company needs one technical writer or compliance specialist. That basically means that all small everyday electronics products will come from overseas. Either because it’s cheaper or it’s cheaper and nobody cares about certification.

Actually they've just handed the entire market to the few companies that will put in the effort.

If Apple, Samsung and the Chinese manufacturer isn't compliant, then Fairphone just got handed a market of 500 million people with no real competition. Some US electronics manufacturer who doesn't want to deal with EU regulation, is handing over the entire market to someone who will, and that company can still sell everywhere else.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#83
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'm quite sure the advances in LLMs abilities are going to be quite a nice change in this regard. If vendors would be required to release all firmware source code or at least full specs after devices drop out of support, it would be fairly simple and cheap now to port drivers to new kernel release or different OSs.

> If vendors would be required to release all firmware source code This may be the hope or expectation you have with regard to regulation, but I don't think it is ever going to happen because it would conflict with other regulatory requirements, especially in the realm of radio. You may say "regulation can be changed" but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing b…

> but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing bodies otherwise.

You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs?

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#84
post #49

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

EU is huge and hourly rates are different in many countries. Nevertheless, the point is not the electronic toothbrush, but rather the "BIG" stuff that costs much and it's creating a lot of garbage. A 1200 euro TV that breaks after 5 years - are you willing to buy a new one just because? Once you have that infrastructure in place, eventually also the "smaller" things will be cheaper to replace.

TV, unfortunately, are the worst offenders in most cases as they cannot be reliably opened.

Things that are on the not hard scale to fix - cleaning robots, inkjet printers (with fill-in ink), laptops (incl. board repairs as long as they are not a BGA), desktop pc, mowing robots, mowers (all 2 and 4 stroke variants), most battery tools (drills, sanders, saws, etc.). Overall stuff that can opened reliably, even if that requires specialized tools like bearing pullers or impact wrenches.

Things that are hard - anything that uses glue as the prime assembly fastening choice, e.g. TVs and monitors (or just plastic clips). Cheap plastics (ABS) bodies are annoying as well. Fridges, no way to refill or fix the compressor. Serialized components that need specialized tools/software after being replaced.

In that regard that would be my complaint - ease of disassembly and clearly marked parts, exploded views, schematics. Spare parts. Personally, I'd spend half a night to repair 30-40euro device w/o any documentation, just b/c I can -- but that shall not be the norm.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#85

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

I've overheard a guy last week in town saying they brought their iPhone to a repair shop and they've done the repair at fraction of the cost they expected. They were excited and told their friends.

Washing machine repairmen never ceased to exist.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#86
post #63
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, instead of: > it wouldn't provide much value to the vast majority of customers I should have phrased it as: > it wouldn't provide enough value to their customers to create meaningful value for the company. You can argue that "ha ha, we shall enact regulation to force them to do this!" but the reality is that only a small percentage of customers would actually benefit from such regulation. Because most peop…

Imho, the problem the EU is trying to solve isn't necessarily utility to the original buyer. It's the large stream of perfectly usable e-waste modern practices emit. Anything that makes a significant portion of that stream reusable by anyone is a win. If that's someone buying e-waste, unlocking devices, flashing linux, and then reselling it to whomever then that's still a win.

> It's the large stream of perfectly usable e-waste modern practices emit.

From my point of view, the proposals suggested here, although difficult to discuss in detail because of how abstract they are, would not solve this issue in any meaningful way. By "meaningful" I mean that the cost-to-benefit or cost-to-regulation ratio would be rather poor.

IMO, the core issue with e-waste isn't necessarily bad practices by manufacturers, but rather consumer behavior. People often throw away 2–3-year-old phones that are still fully supported by the manufacturer. For example, with the exception of the phone I broke, I usually replace my phone every 5–6 years. Within that timeframe, I have the battery replaced by the manufacturer at least once, and the phone continues to work just fine.

This issue extends beyond electronics as well. People often throw away clothes once they "go out of fashion," which these days happens exceptionally quickly. The same applies to furniture, appliances, and other consumer goods that are often replaced simply because newer models are available, rather than because the old ones are no longer functional.

This is ultimately a broader issue of consumer culture and our tendency to replace things rather than repair or continue using them. I don't agree that this is primarily due to a lack of repair options or difficulty accessing repairs. In many cases, the means to repair these products already exist, but consumers simply choose to replace them instead.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#87
post #66
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is little need not to support a decade old hardware > it's difficult to believe the post is a good faith argument. Right back at you, I guess. I would understand the frustration if manufacturers were not upfront about how long they intend to support their hardware, although that is not always easy to predict. However, demanding that they support hardware indefinitely is unreasonable.

>demanding that they support hardware indefinitely is unreasonable. nobody demands that - it's more of the fact the hardware is locked and serialized, e.g. it won't accept a blue tooth module unless it's unlocked with proprietary software. The hardware manufacturers spend quite the effort, so the devices are not open and require designated tools for minor fixes. I can imagine it not wanting to perform a warranty repa…

> it's more of the fact the hardware is locked and serialized, e.g. it won't accept a blue tooth module unless it's unlocked with proprietary software.

Manufacturers have a regulatory obligation to prevent unauthorized combinations of software and hardware where those combinations could compromise the device's compliance. This is particularly relevant to radio firmware, including Bluetooth, where the manufacturer must ensure that the radio equipment remains compliant with the applicable regulatory requirements.

> The hardware manufacturers spend quite the effort

Because they are required to do so by regulation. Those regulations exist for good reason, for example to prevent unwanted interference in the radio spectrum.

Beyond regulatory requirements, manufacturers also have legitimate reasons for preventing unauthorized tampering with their devices. One concern is theft and device resale, while another is software security.

You may argue that you don't care about these things, which is perfectly fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and there is nothing inherently wrong with holding it. However, I would argue that this is not what the vast majority of customers expect, and that most would ultimately accept these constraints for the benefits they provide.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#88

I would like to see small appliances inbuilt batteries (mostly Li-Ion based) be prohibted. It contributes to device obsolescence and is a security risk --> burning waste dumps.

I think this regulation that comes into effect February of next year concerns all kinds of batteries, not only those of smartphones https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... . I think, because I didn't doublecheck right now further than reading the first matching "appliances" paragraph (ctrl-f).

What I know off the top of my head, from reading the legislation a while ago. Is that technical reasons, such as waterproof devices, will still be able to retain non user replaceable batteries if it is needed to keep the device waterproof.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#89
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they don't want to give up ownership back to you No, it's simply that your demand is completely unreasonable. You are essentially asking them to adopt an open-source model. That can mean giving up control over its intellectual property and potentially exposing proprietary technology to competitors, especially when some products are valuable precisely because of the software that runs on them. Edit: I don't know why…

> I don't know why it is not allowing me to reply to you. There's a 10 minute timer on HN to avoid discussions becoming too heated (at least AFAIK that's the reason). > You are essentially asking them to adopt an open-source model. That can mean giving up control over its intellectual property and potentially exposing proprietary technology to competitors, especially when some products are valuable precisely because…

> ...and nothing wrong with that. The right-to-repair is mainly aimed at discontinued products anyway, at that point the "IP" is so old it doesn't require protection

What you consider "old" may not be what I, or the manufacturer, consider "old." A lot of embedded development is incremental: you start with an existing codebase and continue building on it to meet new requirements. Occasionally, the entire system is rewritten from scratch, but that is not necessarily the case. Therefore, even software running on a discontinued product may contain code and intellectual property that is still actively used in newer products.

> and to be honest, the whole concept of long term "intellectual property" is bullshit anyway, just as long-term "copyright" - about 3 to 5 years is a reasonable time frame for 'exploiting' a novel idea, after that it should be free for all - at that time your competitors will have figured it out anyway

I believe you are confusing intellectual property and copyright with patents. If that is the case, I would largely agree. I would even go further and argue that many things that are allowed to be patented are ridiculous and not particularly novel at all. Some are so obvious that even a layperson could arrive at the same solution, which arguably should disqualify them from being patented in the first place. This is especially egregious in the standards world, where some companies hold patents on solutions that are intended to be standardized and used globally.

If, however, you are not confusing these terms, then I find your position absolutely ridiculous. It would be akin to asking Microsoft to release the source code for Windows, Office, Teams, Azure (although who wants to see that mess, am I right? lol) simply because "intellectual property" isn't a thing. That would outright destroy countless business models, and I can assure you that no major global or regional regulatory body is going to adopt that position.

> >>there is absolutely no reason whyThere are plenty of reasons. You simply don't agree with them. That's perfectly fine, but claiming that there is "no reason" for things to work differently from how you want them to is simply ridiculous. Many of them I've mentioned in this post.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#90
post #83
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If vendors would be required to release all firmware source code This may be the hope or expectation you have with regard to regulation, but I don't think it is ever going to happen because it would conflict with other regulatory requirements, especially in the realm of radio. You may say "regulation can be changed" but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing b…

> but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing bodies otherwise. You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs?

> You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs?

The radio modules in iPads are compliant, assuming that the software using those radio modules is compliant as well. This is why manufacturers have to enforce specific combinations of software and hardware, as not all of the functionality and regulatory constraints are implemented in the hardware itself.

If you gain access to the radio module of an iPad, you can definitely make it non-compliant, depending on the level of access the module provides. In my experience, however, radio modules generally provide enough access that a user could potentially cause regulatory issues if the relevant safeguards were removed or you do not adhere to the specification of the radio protocol you are using.

If you don't believe me look at Bluetooth SIG listings and you will note that they specify specific software versions: https://qualification.bluetooth.com/Listings/Search

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