Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

rte.ie

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 147 posts

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#41

Post by vv_ »

Hendrikto wrote: post #16
vv_ wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Updating old products is expensive, especially as their hardware falls further behind. Unless manufacturers adopt some kind of subscription model to justify the cost of continued updates, which would likely be very unpopular, I don’t see how they can realistically keep older devices supported indefinitely.

Vendors do not have to support their product indefinitely. They have to design their products in a way that they do not become useless after support ends. E.g. by opening up the bootloader and letting users install custom software.

> E.g. by opening up the bootloader and letting users install custom software.

If limited to the bootloader, such as allowing users to run their own operating system, then that is definitely a possibility, with the exception of firmware running on the device itself. But I doubt that is what most users here are expecting, and in my opinion, it wouldn't provide much value to the vast majority of customers.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#42

Post by philipallstar »

shiandow wrote: post #39
expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

You underestimate my willingness to 'under sell' my free time by spending it to fix something I own.

How does that generalise across the population?

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#43

Post by euroderf »

expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

When did it become socially acceptable to throw things out rather than repair them ? When did it become economically rational ?

Helsinki (for one) needs some real repair cafés.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#44

Post by vrganj »

troupo wrote: post #2

> including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. I have a ~10 year old iPad Pro in perfect working condition. I can basically do nothing with it, and increasingly it can no longer even browse the internet because Safari is so outdated on it. So it will be waste. See similar story about Amazon bricking old Kindles: https://www.techradar.com/tabl…

Try out Reynard, which ships up-to-date Gecko instead of relying on outdated system WebKit! https://github.com/minh-ton/reynard-browser

Might help you get some more use out of it, thanks to the DMA :-)

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#45

Post by vv_ »

realusername wrote: post #18
vv_ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they don't want to give up ownership back to you No, it's simply that your demand is completely unreasonable. You are essentially asking them to adopt an open-source model. That can mean giving up control over its intellectual property and potentially exposing proprietary technology to competitors, especially when some products are valuable precisely because of the software that runs on them. Edit: I don't know why…

No, I'm asking these devices to work like normal computers, because that's what they are. Also I doubt that there's anything left on 2015 era hardware that will grant you an edge on current age competitors To give a reply: > Can you freely tinker with your motherboard's firmware? Can you modify the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi firmware on your motherboard? Can you modify and independently update the internals of Windows itself…

> I'm asking these devices to work like normal computers

> Yes I expect do be able to do all of those things if I want to

For the components I listed, and based on my understanding of "normal computers" as desktops and laptops, you cannot do all of these things today.

> it's my computer

It's their firmware. They don't magically give up their intellectual property rights when you purchase a piece of hardware from them.

What would be reasonable is providing access to datasheets, schematics, and manuals, where permitted by local laws, so that users can tinker with and develop for the hardware themselves. However, that shouldn't come with the expectation that the hardware's chain of trust remains intact or that all features will continue to function as they do with the OEM software.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#46

Post by tpxl »

expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

The manufacturer/seller already employs people who deal with this, and it's not expensive. Getting my washing machine fixed for 10€ parts + labor instead of 300€ parts + labor sounds mighty nice to me.

> Manufacturers must also provide [...] access to spare parts at a reasonable price.

This is the important part. Stupid shit like 0.3€ soldering buttons to 200€ motherboards so the repair is expensive has got to go.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#47

Post by vv_ »

xxs wrote: post #25
vv_ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not always possible to provide the required support. First, it is expensive, as someone needs to prepare all the materials and resources the community would need to continue supporting the product after official support ends. Second, there are legal restrictions, for example, you may not be allowed to provide access to the radio firmware. Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual pro…

The intellectual property is not some god given right unlike air and water. There is little need not to support a decade old hardware and effectively turning the said hardware to a door stop, or a landfill. Btw, it's difficult to believe the post is a good faith argument.

> There is little need not to support a decade old hardware

> it's difficult to believe the post is a good faith argument.

Right back at you, I guess.

I would understand the frustration if manufacturers were not upfront about how long they intend to support their hardware, although that is not always easy to predict. However, demanding that they support hardware indefinitely is unreasonable.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#48

Post by kubelsmieci »

stavros wrote: post #28
Hendrikto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently had to throw out a first gen iPad that was physically still in mint condition (even including the battery, somehow), simply for the lack of support essentially turning it into a useless brick.

I understand that Apple can't provide upgrades for free, but why can't I buy an upgrade for $30 or whatever? Better than throwing away perfectly good devices. And they won't let anyone install any other software onto the hardware, so I can't even rely on the free market providing what I want.

> why can't I buy an upgrade for $30 or whatever?

Because otherwise you won't buy new device for full price

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#49

Post by mk89 »

expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

EU is huge and hourly rates are different in many countries.

Nevertheless, the point is not the electronic toothbrush, but rather the "BIG" stuff that costs much and it's creating a lot of garbage.

A 1200 euro TV that breaks after 5 years - are you willing to buy a new one just because?

Once you have that infrastructure in place, eventually also the "smaller" things will be cheaper to replace.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#50

Post by spockz »

euroderf wrote: post #43
expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

When did it become socially acceptable to throw things out rather than repair them ? When did it become economically rational ? Helsinki (for one) needs some real repair cafés.

The moment manufacturers started making products that didn’t last long enough, with replacement parts expensive enough, and raising hourly rates for labour which made it cheaper to buy a new product rather than repair the old one. Also the new product tended to be more efficient with electricity and water or marketed as such.
Post reply on HN