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Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

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Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#81

Post by brainwad »

ghostly_s wrote: post #71
brainwad wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume that the market for coconut oil is far smaller than for jet fuel, so this solution can't scale without wreaking havoc on the environment. These sort of clever uses for exisiting byproducts only work when the market for the main product is much bigger than for the byproduct (e.g. down is a byproduct of duck/goose meat, leather is a byproduct of beef).

The existing solution is actively wreaking havoc on the environment. I don't know the specifics of this crop but generally agricultural products absorb a substantial amount of carbon when growing, so releasing some of that carbon by later burning has the potential to be close to carbon-neutral. Whilst petroleum fuels are 100% carbon negative.

There's more to the environment than the greenhouse effect. Coconut plantations would compete with rainforest in much the same way palm oil ones do, since they have more or less identical growing climates.

If you want to use biofuels, use a plant that grows in low-value areas like open fields. Something like corn or sugarcane.

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#82

Post by steve1977 »

openasocket wrote: post #60
steve1977 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best solution to flying and long distance travel is to reduce it as much as possible. This means no more travelling for hedonistic (touristic) purposes. I.e. measures like massive taxation (also for private jets of course).

I think that's a bad frame of mind in general. One of the primary ways industry tries to prevent regulation is by putting the burden on the individual. People think the only way we can have a healthy environment is by sacrificing things for the average person. And one of the worst things environmentalists can do is play along with that. In the US there's a push to ban plastic straws, which is annoying to the average…

Oh we can and should absolutely do both. Travel and tourism has other downsides which make it worth reducing it, like the fast spread of diseases for example.

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#83

Post by leni536 »

openasocket wrote: post #60
steve1977 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best solution to flying and long distance travel is to reduce it as much as possible. This means no more travelling for hedonistic (touristic) purposes. I.e. measures like massive taxation (also for private jets of course).

I think that's a bad frame of mind in general. One of the primary ways industry tries to prevent regulation is by putting the burden on the individual. People think the only way we can have a healthy environment is by sacrificing things for the average person. And one of the worst things environmentalists can do is play along with that. In the US there's a push to ban plastic straws, which is annoying to the average…

The difference between removing plastic straws and reducing air travel is that reducing air travel would have an impact.

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#84

Post by [deleted] »

mjevans wrote: post #23
zweifuss wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle of the road, comparable to Sunflower oil. But they want to utilize waste products and a low energy conversion process.

Is Jet Fuel really the best use of coconut oil? I'd imagine it's far better as a lubricant or ingredient in things more directly adjacent to human rather than mechanical use.

[deleted]

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#85

Post by chermi »

But why? I don't know of a case where biofuels aren't a disaster against the stated environmental purpose. Bailouts for farmers? Sure. A good way to generate green energy? I think engineered algae comes kind of close to making sense as an oil source, but as a fuel would still seem silly to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#86

Post by chermi »

pfdietz wrote: post #50
sixtyj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many coconuts are on one tree and how many tons of coconuts would be needed to replace kerosene globally? I am 100% for decarbonization as fast as possible. BTW Law of Conservation of Energy will be applied to coconut-based energy as well. Vaclav Smil mentions in his book that we should consume less. I see so many cheap weekender air tickets… it’s almost impossible to resist the temptation. Annually 5 billions pe…

Vaclav Smil so wildly mispredicted the trajectory of renewables that his worldview should be taken with heavy skepticism.

That's true of basically all economists' predictions of technology. But he does a lot more than state predictions, his numbers and breakdowns and decompositioba are valuable in themselves.

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#87

Post by legitster »

> This study used oil from material the researchers describe as discarded and non-edible, including the large seeds and leftover flesh, so the fuel draws on parts of the crop that would otherwise go to waste.

This statement seems disingenuous. Surely they did not invent a novel way to extract coconut oil as part of this study and not choose to publish it. Surely this is just existing byproduct that already has plenty of commercial use.

If you look at how many coconut plantations you would need to make even a measurable dent in jet fuel demand, this would be an unmitigated environmental disaster.

I want to solve climate change as much as the next guy, but chopping down all our tropical rainforests to make it happen sacrifices exactly what we're trying to save.

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#88

Post by VerifiedReports »

legitster wrote: post #87

> This study used oil from material the researchers describe as discarded and non-edible, including the large seeds and leftover flesh, so the fuel draws on parts of the crop that would otherwise go to waste. This statement seems disingenuous. Surely they did not invent a novel way to extract coconut oil as part of this study and not choose to publish it. Surely this is just existing byproduct that already has plenty…

Yep, we've seen this sobering reality ignored in previously-hyped "biofuel" aviation stories.

Not to mention another glaring omission here: "By adding acetone to a mixture of alcohol and coconut oil"

How much energy is needed to produce those two ingredients, and the things THEY are made from?

If I were a junior-high teacher, I'd probably give this paper a C.

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#89

Post by WarmWash »

stevenwoo wrote: post #72
b112 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that it caused the price of corn to go way up, meaning the poor in Mexico found food far more expensive. International markets and all that...

NAFTA and successive treaties forced Mexico to allow much cheaper corn from the USA to displace many smaller corn farms in Mexico, only larger farms could survive that and farming of corn is declining in Mexico. Also inexpensive processed food displaced traditional diet goods at the same time for the same reasons, probably contributing to obesity epidemic that only started in Mexico after those treaties.

Processed foods are not cheaper than healthier options. People constantly repeat this, but it's flat out wrong.

The best way to apologize for people who, is to say that they don't have enough time to cook between all the jobs they have.

Re: Coconut oil jet fuel matches kerosene's efficiency in engine tests

#90

Post by b112 »

stevenwoo wrote: post #72
b112 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that it caused the price of corn to go way up, meaning the poor in Mexico found food far more expensive. International markets and all that...

NAFTA and successive treaties forced Mexico to allow much cheaper corn from the USA to displace many smaller corn farms in Mexico, only larger farms could survive that and farming of corn is declining in Mexico. Also inexpensive processed food displaced traditional diet goods at the same time for the same reasons, probably contributing to obesity epidemic that only started in Mexico after those treaties.

Likely, and then... after Mexican farms went out of business, they added biofuels, the price spiked, and Mexico had no domestic corn people could buy.

It's sort of what they want for Canada. They keep trying to attack our protected agricultural sectors, and no sane country doesn't protect their food supply. Amusingly, they want 10% of our dairy market (as a start), and they already have a few percent.

Yet we're 1/10th the size of them. So they make a massive fuss, over 5 additional percent of our market or so, which for their market size is 0.5% of its overall size. The US economy won't even notice, but the Canadian market will 10x as much. It's just petty.

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