Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

881–890 of 1001 posts

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#881

Post by inigyou »

varispeed wrote: post #430
deepfriedbits wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, this is a wild take. Things aren't great in the U.S. right now, but they're not even in the same universe as what the Stasi was doing. > I think it would be easier to understand the playing field and choose your actions accordingly, if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of course with 1000x more invasive and effective surveillance tech.

I am pretty sure someone discussing taking people to gas chambers in 1933 would also be called having a wild take. It's where the US is heading. Fascism marches on in full swing.

Germans didn't believe there were gas chambers until the 50s or 60s.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#882

Post by cogman10 »

grapheneos wrote: post #333
Zak wrote: post #189

For exactly the border search scenario, I wish smartphones could be imaged and restored as easily as PCs. Imagine booting the phone from a flash drive, making an encrypted image of the phone on said drive, and writing a fresh OS before reaching the border. There's no deception required to protect sensitive data or avoid the seizure of an expensive phone. Consent to unlocking the phone, refuse to unlock the drive. The…

GrapheneOS has built-in encrypted backup and restore. It backs up the same data transferred by Google's device transfer feature for moving to a new phone which is nearly all app data, the data in the home directory, contacts and a bit more. Certain apps such as Signal encrypt their own data with another layer of encryption using a hardware keystore key. Signal's own backup system needs to be used for that, although i…

> It's worth noting wiping a device shortly before an anticipated search could also be considered destruction of evidence in the same way.

Look, if we are talking about a warranted search in the US then I'd agree with you. However, the entire point of CPB's unwarranted search authority is to stop contraband from coming in.

This would be like arguing that throwing away materials illegal in the US before boarding a plane is destruction of evidence.

Like, even if we assume exactly what CBP's claim is true, it was to stop CSAM. And the person had in fact had CSAM. Destroying the CSAM before getting to the US would be legal even though the US doesn't like it.

Further, if the data is actually backed up, then you haven't actually destroyed it and CBP or another agency can provide you with a search warrant for what they are looking for. But I'd note that this is far outside of CBP's authority. They are for stopping contraband, not FBI work.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#883

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

anywhichway wrote: post #644
cortesoft wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s to stop them from seeing an empty phone, and then accuse you of deleting it when they asked to see it?

That isn't a crime. It's not a crime to travel across the border with a factory reset phone. That is a fine thing to do and a regular practice for people working in some sensitive areas. The issue here is only that he deleted it after they started an investigation. The legal eagle video in the post says this explicitly that he would've been fine if he had wiped his phone prior to the flight.

> he would've been fine if he had wiped his phone prior to the flight.

This comment assumes rule of law (a.k.a. a government constrained by laws).

What if what we instead had was a government secretly tracking a dissident they didn't like, then searching them with a pretext and no legal justification.

What would have likely happened in that case, is that the government accuses him of destroying evidence anyways, because they're mad the search didn't turn up anything incriminating, and his life gets ruined fighting against their retaliation for years, with no consequences for the actual offenders.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#884

Post by trollbridge »

ratelimitsteve wrote: post #315
overfeed wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you should be safe, apart from some kind of rubber-hose cryptanalysis. There are vendors that sell the technology to adversarially access phone data, the "Before First Unlock" is the safest state a phone can be, but it's not infallible. The safest option is to have a burner or factory-reset phone with nothing on it, even if the hack succeeds.

I've worked with Cellebrite, the industry standard in IT forensics for unlocking and imaging phones. It just runs a series of known exploits. PIN lock, data encryption and regular updates will beat it most of the time.

When I interact with the general public, I get a nice reminder that most people don't do a decent PIN lock, don't have encryption on unless it's the default for that platform, and don't do regular updates. Lots of reasons why (phone is out of space to do an update; not signed in properly to Apple / Google account; kids use their phone so they want an easy to remember PIN on it, etc. etc.)

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#885

Post by globular-toast »

gcanyon wrote: post #848

I read a pretty compelling argument by a lawyer that we're looking at this the wrong way. (I Am Not A Lawyer) Their point was that if the law is knocking on your door to legally search your house, and you have records of your criminal empire printed out in boxes in your attic, or just non-illegal things you don't want people to see, and you burn those papers while the law waits out front, you're guilty of destroying…

Is there any evidence that evidence has been destroyed? To use the analogy I might just decide I don't want anyone reading my personal diary and burn it. It doesn't mean I destroyed evidence. If you knew it was evidence you wouldn't need to read it...

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#886

Post by wefarrell »

gcanyon wrote: post #848

I read a pretty compelling argument by a lawyer that we're looking at this the wrong way. (I Am Not A Lawyer) Their point was that if the law is knocking on your door to legally search your house, and you have records of your criminal empire printed out in boxes in your attic, or just non-illegal things you don't want people to see, and you burn those papers while the law waits out front, you're guilty of destroying…

What if it didn't "destroy" the evidence, but instead encrypted it in a way that couldn't be decrypted at that moment?

Or if it copied a snapshot some remote and inaccessible server while bricking the phone?

The digital nature of the evidence does make this different than physical files.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#887

Post by mort96 »

jusssi wrote: post #803
mort96 wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not in the US, but say I was. I'm fully on board that the country is slowly (or not so slowly) drifting into becoming a fascist state. Say I needed to leave the country for some important reason and come back. Say I didn't want my phone searched. What should I do? What amount of taking responsibility, making decisions, taking action and gathering support is gonna help in that situation? Technological workarounds…

> Say I needed to leave the country for some important reason and come back. Say I didn't want my phone searched. What should I do? Don't take your phone and/or other devices you don't want to have searched. It's the advice routinely given to those planning a trip from the rest of the world to the US.

That's another technical workaround. A good one, when possible, but it doesn't exactly fix fascism.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#889

Post by inigyou »

freediddy wrote: post #500

The difference is that this guy gave a code that wiped the device while it was under investigation. That's obstruction. If he wiped his phone before crossing the border, he would have been fine. If he refused to give his password to the phone, he would have been held up for a bit and then he would have to leave his phone, but he would be fine. American citizens cannot be denied entry into the US. The difference is th…

The difference is he bragged that he did so. Otherwise he'd have much better plausible deniability.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#890

Post by inigyou »

attila-lendvai wrote: post #162
thomasjeff1 wrote: post #117

Why American authorities are always attacking their citizens freedom?

i think it's just that the American population is the last bunch who gives a damn about it, and the pockets of resistance still makes the news... the same happens mostly everywhere else, just without much complaints. e.g. in Hungary the authorities treat it as a felony to possess an equipment that can record video or sound and it's not obvious when looking at it. 2-8 years in prison for mere posession, i.e. even if i…

In Germany it's a crime to carry a laptop that has nmap installed.
Post reply on HN