Live data from Hacker News

Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

nytimes.com

231–240 of 1001 posts

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#232
post #217
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's enough to shut down you phone. Then it needs a pin, and you're entitled to not give that over, I believe. So you should be safe, apart from some kind of rubber-hose cryptanalysis.

If you don't give a pin, they can seize your devices (Andrew Tate on his 1st visit to Florida said that he refused to give pin and they seized phone and laptop)

They can't keep them, you'll get the devices back. Use a temp phone in the mean time.

Sad that we have to accept this as a risk of international travel, but here we are.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#233
post #186

U.S. citizens are going to need obtain a burner phone before returning, and load it with the absolute minimum to load boarding passes, etc., perhaps some reading material or a movie to watch on the plane, and be prepared to share full credentials for thing at the border. (I used to do some travel patterns where taking a certain client laptop wasn’t an option. It was an absolute gigantic pain for the type of work I di…

I think it's enough to shut down you phone. Then it needs a pin, and you're entitled to not give that over, I believe. So you should be safe, apart from some kind of rubber-hose cryptanalysis.

> So you should be safe, apart from some kind of rubber-hose cryptanalysis.

There are vendors that sell the technology to adversarially access phone data, the "Before First Unlock" is the safest state a phone can be, but it's not infallible. The safest option is to have a burner or factory-reset phone with nothing on it, even if the hack succeeds.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#234
post #2

According to the article, he was actually using GrapheneOS and gave the border official the Duress PIN. So I guess technically it was the official that erased the data :-)

Not how the law works. If I put a bomb in a box. It will explode if a certain pin is put in. And you ask ”can I open the box? What is the pin?” And I say ”here is the pin to open it” and the bomb explodes. Do you think I can claim they blew up themselves ?

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#235
post #2

According to the article, he was actually using GrapheneOS and gave the border official the Duress PIN. So I guess technically it was the official that erased the data :-)

A better feature would be a 2nd PIN that unlocks the phone to a secondary profile, which you would leave pretty bare for situations like these.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#236
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is on the dot. The entirety of their argument can be summed up as “I don’t want to give a shit about my neighbor”. And, “I don’t want to care for the hungry”. Or, “I don’t want to share medical costs with my neighbors”. Basically, “I don’t want to share anything”.

I'm healthier than my neighbors. I carry 4-6 gallons of water a mile every couple of days on foot. I don't own a car either, I ride a bicycle. If my neighbors and I share medical costs, I'm definitely losing a lot there. My neighbors are obese. 40% of Americans are obese. 80% are overweight. Americans are not healthy in general. They don't even try. How is forcing me to participate in their healthcare a freedom?

The American healthcare system is fundamentally broken on top of this. How is forcing me to pay into a system that is broken and a system I won't use, how is that freedom? Americans spend more money than any other country only to recieve worse outcomes. You can walk into an American hospital, tell them you have just returned from west Africa where there is an Ebola outbreak, and tell the nurse you have Ebola symptoms, and that nurse will send you home with a perscription for antibiotics that don't work against viral infections at all. And then you die. I'm citing a real example that actually happened.

https://abcnews.com/news/story/ebola-patient-released-texas-...

Given the state of American healthcare, I wouldn't go to an American hospital even if near death. I'd try to get myself to a hospital in some other country before going to an American one.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#238
post #213

I used to play around on projects adjacent to Tor and TailsOS, and had an idea for a setup I was researching. It's a little intense and probably has annoying failure modes, but sharing in case anyone else finds it helpful: - Tasker is an automation app for setting up rules for triggers and actions. It allows extension apps to be created to add new triggers and actions. - someone at one point made an extension to add…

I used to contribute to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USBKill

Ah I recall I used to see the creator around :) thanks for your work!

Regarding the motivation for usbkill mentioned in the article: I too was motivated to think on this stuff in relation to my sense of injustice around Ross Ulbrecht, and wanting to think of some way that someone in his position could avoid getting caught. One creative variant in my thinking involved embedding the BLE beacon inside a rubber ball that could be launched and lost track of. Or maybe embedded in heel of a shoe and ditched in transit haha

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#239

Why American authorities are always attacking their citizens freedom?

[flagged]

I would recommend “Means of Control” for a more clear picture of how the surveillance state works today. Here is a review: https://reason.com/2024/02/27/the-spy-in-your-pocket/

The current situation is a result of a nearly unanimous Washington consensus regarding this issue. Not one party vs another.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#240

What I don't understand is if he just didn't give any password, he would have been fine. It's only because he gave him a duress pin that he's in trouble. So, in both cases the government wouldn't have access to the contents of the phone

Is that allowed? Can you refuse to give a pin when asked?

It's complicated.

> Courts have generally found that compelling individuals to provide their numeric or alphanumeric passcode is potentially testimonial under the Fifth Amendment, as it forces the defendant to reveal “the contents of his own mind.” In Re Grand Jury Subpoena Duces Tecum 670 F.3d at 1345; see also U.S. v. Apple MacPro Computer, 851 F.3d 238 (3d Cir. 2017). It is analogous to compelling production of the combination to a wall safe, which is testimonial, as opposed to surrendering the key to a strongbox, which is not. See Doe v. U.S., 487 U.S. 201, 220 (1988). However, even if a court finds that providing the passcode is “testimonial,” it may still fall under the “foregone conclusion” exception

https://www.nacdl.org/Content/Compelled-Decryption-Primer

In short, you can't be compelled to give up the code in a dragnet attempt to find evidence against you (e.g. a boarder guard can't riffle through your text messages to see if you might have done something illegal), but if it's already certain that particular evidence exists on the device as a result of other evidence, they may be able to compel you to give up your passcode.

Note though that the cases where this has come up are very few and far between, and there isn't a super clear overriding precedent to follow.

In general though, the best choice here is to say nothing at all and work with a lawyer to figure out how to proceed.

Post reply on HN