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Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

nytimes.com

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Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#361

Post by insane_dreamer »

groby_b wrote: post #264
insane_dreamer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

right, there's a contradiction here: - if you're deemed to be on US soil, constitutional protections (4A) apply; can't be destroying "evidence" unless you're accused of a crime or found to have committed a crime - if you're deemed _not_ yet on US soil, then how can you be charged with a crime under _US_ law?

4A still doesn't permit you to destroy the evidence. Resist on 4A grounds, destroy the evidence, 4A reasons get overturned - you've got yourself a conviction. US v. Akram Musleh.

in practice you're right, but it's hard to see how that squares with the 4A.

an officer can't stop me on the street and demand to see the contents of my phone -- unless they can show "probable cause" that I was about to commit a crime (based on other evidence), or I'm already named as a suspect or POI in an investigation. So if they ask to see the contents of my phone and I delete it instead (it's a very small bag in this example, Lol) am I obstructing an investigation?

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#363

Post by victorbjorklund »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #287
victorbjorklund wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not how the law works. If I put a bomb in a box. It will explode if a certain pin is put in. And you ask ”can I open the box? What is the pin?” And I say ”here is the pin to open it” and the bomb explodes. Do you think I can claim they blew up themselves ?

Yes. Because law enforcement assumes there's bombs in boxes by default and defers to the bomb squad to understand the box before they touch it. Why would the bomb squad trust the box owner to help them defuse it? To understand the issue, you have to construct a proper analog.

I never told you it is a box with a bomb. You just asked if you can have the pin. You can do another example where you give false information with the intent of making another person take an action that they don’t wanna take and would not take unless you had provided false information. You are causing the action to happen. Just like if you yell fire in a theater. You didn’t stamped anyone to death. But your words caused it.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#364

Post by stronglikedan »

btbuildem wrote: post #227

The naivete of some of the comments here is astounding. It doesn't matter whether you're right, it doesn't matter whether it's the law, it's irrelevant that you have rights, etc. Those things are of the past now, for the US. I think it would be easier to understand the playing field and choose your actions accordingly, if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of cours…

> if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era

That's just too ridiculous and absurd for most people to accept, thankfully. I accept reality, not social media narratives.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#365

Post by hamdingers »

patcon wrote: post #357
hamdingers wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or keep it in a faraday bag and have the phone wipe if it sees it. If you're ever searched (or otherwise indisposed), they'll open the bag and wipe your phone for you.

Oh hey, I like this variant! So... both the BLE beacon and the phone have a faraday cage, and if they ever appear together outside their cages, the phone wipes? Perhaps less likely to go wrong than my original proposal when living normal life, as it might wipe if the BLE signal randomly gets lost. It would be nicer if you could leave phone in cage during security, and remove beacon while loading airport trays ("remov…

I was imagining only the BLE beacon living in one of those little faraday pouches people put their key fobs in. They should be pretty much transparent passing through the x-ray and a pouch with an airtag in it wouldn't raise any suspicion at all at the airport.

Only once you're getting invasively searched would they (ideally) dump the pouch out into the tray with your phone.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#366

Post by victorbjorklund »

throwaway219450 wrote: post #293
victorbjorklund wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Does it take a long time to recover the phone? Haven’t really ever needed to recover a backup

Apple makes this very easy. I broke an iPhone and bought a replacement. If you have iCloud, you login to the new phone and you can see which backups you can recover from. If you are transferring a phone, say you upgraded, it’s even easier. You can also image the phone with a connected laptop and store it on a backup drive, which is nice to not use up iCloud limits. The transfer and backup system are pretty much the s…

Aha that is actually pretty long

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#367

Post by wat10000 »

overfeed wrote: post #233
pkulak wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's enough to shut down you phone. Then it needs a pin, and you're entitled to not give that over, I believe. So you should be safe, apart from some kind of rubber-hose cryptanalysis.

> So you should be safe, apart from some kind of rubber-hose cryptanalysis. There are vendors that sell the technology to adversarially access phone data, the "Before First Unlock" is the safest state a phone can be, but it's not infallible. The safest option is to have a burner or factory-reset phone with nothing on it, even if the hack succeeds.

Before First Unlock with recent hardware and an up to date OS is probably sufficiently infallible for an average person. I wouldn't want to rely on it if I was engaged in espionage, but for someone who won't get the NSA pulled into the case, I'd be pretty confident. This leaked Cellebrite support matrix shows that BFU was secure against them for iPhones that were nearly four years old at the time, and I doubt it's become significantly worse since then: https://ia800405.us.archive.org/32/items/inseyets-offline-uf...

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#368

Post by wat10000 »

TheqO wrote: post #217
pkulak wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's enough to shut down you phone. Then it needs a pin, and you're entitled to not give that over, I believe. So you should be safe, apart from some kind of rubber-hose cryptanalysis.

If you don't give a pin, they can seize your devices (Andrew Tate on his 1st visit to Florida said that he refused to give pin and they seized phone and laptop)

I'll take that risk. It's pretty unlikely, and if it happens, having to buy a new phone is not the worst thing in the world.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#369

Post by aucisson_masque »

joenot443 wrote: post #282
btbuildem wrote: post #227

The naivete of some of the comments here is astounding. It doesn't matter whether you're right, it doesn't matter whether it's the law, it's irrelevant that you have rights, etc. Those things are of the past now, for the US. I think it would be easier to understand the playing field and choose your actions accordingly, if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of cours…

> if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of course with 1000x more invasive and effective surveillance tech. I'm pretty optimistic that after the next general America will be ready to give up on the extremity of late turn over a new leaf. I fully expect a new president to be ushered in, whether R or D, and for some level of normalcy to start creeping back. The Sovie…

America dominance on the world is ending, it's a fact. East Asia is at least on par, India is china from 25 years ago.

It's becoming more obvious every day. And yeah, people in 1910 watched Europe dominate the world for about 1500 years. Yet it came to an end.

If you want to Speedrun the collapse, vote for trump. He sure is making a good job right now with diplomacy, lack of long term planning and just getting all your allies to hate you.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#370

Post by swat535 »

joenot443 wrote: post #282
btbuildem wrote: post #227

The naivete of some of the comments here is astounding. It doesn't matter whether you're right, it doesn't matter whether it's the law, it's irrelevant that you have rights, etc. Those things are of the past now, for the US. I think it would be easier to understand the playing field and choose your actions accordingly, if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of cours…

> if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of course with 1000x more invasive and effective surveillance tech. I'm pretty optimistic that after the next general America will be ready to give up on the extremity of late turn over a new leaf. I fully expect a new president to be ushered in, whether R or D, and for some level of normalcy to start creeping back. The Sovie…

Interesting you say that, because as another Canadian, I would say that the sentiment in our country is the opposite of you describe. The actions of our government reflect it.

Canada is moving further from US, not closer. Canadians who support Americans are in the minority at the moment.

I'm not sure how a new US president would be able to turn it around.. further more, what's to say that the president thereafter will follow suit? How about the next 5?

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