971–980 of 1001 posts
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The civilian casualties in Gaza are lower than the US managed in Iraq in dense urban areas. So.. yea they did and still you complain.
What data are you using exactly? Iraq had well over 10 times the population (26-27 million) and the war lasted about 10 years. "Mortality in Iraq Associated with the 2003–2011 War and Occupation"[pubmed] put the figure at about 132,000 war related deaths. "Iraq body count" was about 158,000. Taking the highest figure that's about 0.6% of the population over the 10 years. I think the estimates for Gaza, with a populat…
Some groups do put the figures above 1 million.[0]
> I think the estimates for Gaza, with a population of about 2.2 million, are between 70 to 75,000.
Keep in mind these figures are not civilian casualty figures, they are overall casualty figures.
Data quality issues do make comparisons rather tricky. Generally you would also want to compare against similar battles that have mainly urban conflict rather than a war in a large country where the amount of fighting varied much more.
In any case looking at raw casualty numbers doesn't really give one the best picture by itself, analyzing combatant to civilian death ratios is probably better than population death ratios as that gives you a better idea at how careful parties are at reducing civilian casualties. Unfortunately Hamas also uses tactics that are designed to increase civilian casualties as well which further complicates comparative analysis.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualt...
Earlier quoted context omitted.
What data are you using exactly? Iraq had well over 10 times the population (26-27 million) and the war lasted about 10 years. "Mortality in Iraq Associated with the 2003–2011 War and Occupation"[pubmed] put the figure at about 132,000 war related deaths. "Iraq body count" was about 158,000. Taking the highest figure that's about 0.6% of the population over the 10 years. I think the estimates for Gaza, with a populat…
> Taking the highest figure Some groups do put the figures above 1 million.[0] > I think the estimates for Gaza, with a population of about 2.2 million, are between 70 to 75,000. Keep in mind these figures are not civilian casualty figures, they are overall casualty figures. Data quality issues do make comparisons rather tricky. Generally you would also want to compare against similar battles that have mainly urban c…
That said, if someone is going to make a contentious claim, referencing the evidence or using some data to work up a basic attempt to substantiate the claim is the only to look like you aren't just making up claims.
If data just on deaths is varying by a whole factor of 10, I can't see how you could possibly get anywhere near any meaningful figure for 'combatant to civilian death ratios' in Iraq. You're adding another layer ontop of data that you already recognise is hugely flawed.
Add to that the issue that, in Gaza, Israel has completely sealed off the area from international observers, so credible data on "combatant to civilian death ratios" just won't exist.
All I can say is that based on the data, the claim made is absolutely not supported by the evidence. [Edit - even if the million figure were credible, it's still at least double, and actually indicating the opposite of what was claimed]
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Anything you disagree with is "Hasbara" right ? Supporting Israel's right to exist - Hasbara. Saying some Palestinian hold extremist view - Hasbara.
No country has some divine right to exist. If a nation keeps crossing every line, there's no reason to keep it around. How is this not obvious.
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Sure, criticism of NATO is always pro-Russian disinfo. Just as with Israel and being antiseptic.
Israel has carried out a massively destructive war of aggression against civilians, and NATO .. hasn't.
Shameful.
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> Taking the highest figure Some groups do put the figures above 1 million.[0] > I think the estimates for Gaza, with a population of about 2.2 million, are between 70 to 75,000. Keep in mind these figures are not civilian casualty figures, they are overall casualty figures. Data quality issues do make comparisons rather tricky. Generally you would also want to compare against similar battles that have mainly urban c…
80% of ORB's estimated deaths came from four central governorates (completely excluding 3 altogether), and the mortality responses in those areas had major internal inconsistencies. The conclusion of peer-reviewed critique is that the ORB mortality data were not credible. That said, if someone is going to make a contentious claim, referencing the evidence or using some data to work up a basic attempt to substantiate…
Yeah, I'm not sure how credible it is, I only pointed that one out since you were comparing generally upper range estimates with other upper range estimates.
> I can't see how you could possibly get anywhere near any meaningful figure for 'combatant to civilian death ratios' in Iraq.
I mean, it's the figure that I think matters the most. I agree it's probably also one of the most difficult figures to accurately determine.
> Add to that the issue that, in Gaza, Israel has completely sealed off the area from international observers, so credible data on "combatant to civilian death ratios" just won't exist.
International observers can't operate in Gaza without what is effectively the consent of Hamas. Hamas deliberately doesn't properly differentiate civilian deaths from combatant deaths so it seems not particularly likely that international observers could get accurate data on combatant to civilian death ratios if they are being watched by Hamas.
> All I can say is that based on the data, the claim made is absolutely not supported by the evidence. [Edit - even if the million figure were credible, it's still at least double, and actually indicating the opposite of what was claimed]
Overall deaths is not really the figure I would focus on regardless.
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No country has some divine right to exist. If a nation keeps crossing every line, there's no reason to keep it around. How is this not obvious.
Replacing governments, hard sanctions perhaps - yes. Throwing out an entire people? Why ? Why not throw out the Palestinians then?
I'm on board.
To be clear, I'm not advocating ethnic cleansing and never will.
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Got to admire your imagination coming up with that piece of rubbish. Running a country humanely is free in short term and exponentially profitable in long term. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most democratic countries also tend to be the wealthiest.
He meant being humane in how they fight wars with Hamas. Like it's cheaper to just bomb everything regardless of civilians. The thing is, Israel needs to worry about its own defense too. Currently there are several semi-hostile neighbors that the US basically pays off, plus the US pays for very expensive defense systems in Israel. Last invasion was long ago, Yom Kippur War, where the US was withholding aid until Isra…