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Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

nautil.us

101–110 of 139 posts

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#101
"we’re the shortest sleeping primates, yet we pack in the most REM sleep relative to this short duration."

Nothing surprising here. We sleep in cozy comfortable beds in a locked and secure location. Of course we'd can get int REM sleep. Compare to other primates who sleep outside with the critters and predators, deep sleep could mean the end of them.

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#102
post #78

A nap is the same as sleep, but we don't do this. Any correlation to our southern american friends and their siestas?

I tried to imitate japanese people in the public transport when i was there, meaning I managed to kinda sleep/nap with eyes closed for 10-15minutes between rides and it was astonishing. while I understand might be a more known thing, it was surprising to try it and feel very rested after that. I'm still surprised and I wonder why not the whole world does it. of course without the music at the stops would not be possi…

Growing the GDP and Shareholder Value is more important!

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#103
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single block of sleep is a relatively new behaviour, I suspect partially driven by the availability of cheap sources of light and heat. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieva...

This is a contentious theory with little actual historical backing. Most likely people have been sleeping in one block since forever.

We have evidence that during the medieval period people did take two-sleeps. Whether this is the more "natural" organization is debatable. But it made sense for that time.

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When statements like this are made usually it’s because studies would have been done comparing sleep depth at different temperatures and there would have been a statistically significant increase in sleep depth at 18 degrees Celsius in the tested group compared to groups sleeping at other temperatures. I have no idea if that was actually done here but that’s usually how these statements are justified. Of course we ar…

And every time I hear about an optimum, I think of the Bathtub Curve. As I imagine the curve, I use a real bathtub. Where is the water deepest? At the drain, which is typically just under the faucet. Where is the optimal place to sit? Well, pretty much anywhere except there, because "deepest" (an optimum) isn't enough to accurately gauge "best place". But even if you can swing the faucet out of the way... where is th…

18C is more like the maximum OK temperature. But then I also gotta sleep without PJs when its that hot. Still a blanket for comfort.

Best sleep from my experience? It's usually about 5C at the thermostat, which is farthest from the window, by the time I wake up. And that's likely because it's in the basement, which is a typical NA basement, so you have the uninsulated and below the frost line basement wall there. The cold air coming in will be 0C and colder and I sleep next to the window. Winter is my happy sleep time.

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#105
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single block of sleep is a relatively new behaviour, I suspect partially driven by the availability of cheap sources of light and heat. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieva...

This is a contentious theory with little actual historical backing. Most likely people have been sleeping in one block since forever.

> Historical texts and recent research suggest an alternative view: that sleep can be naturally segmented into two periods across the 24h cycle – a pattern known as biphasic sleep

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138994572...

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#106
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pinnacle@Duxton

Yes, like I said, these things exist. But I ask do significant populations of humans reside in the upper floors of such structures?

In absolute terms, yes. In relative terms, no.

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And every time I hear about an optimum, I think of the Bathtub Curve. As I imagine the curve, I use a real bathtub. Where is the water deepest? At the drain, which is typically just under the faucet. Where is the optimal place to sit? Well, pretty much anywhere except there, because "deepest" (an optimum) isn't enough to accurately gauge "best place". But even if you can swing the faucet out of the way... where is th…

18C is more like the maximum OK temperature. But then I also gotta sleep without PJs when its that hot. Still a blanket for comfort. Best sleep from my experience? It's usually about 5C at the thermostat, which is farthest from the window, by the time I wake up. And that's likely because it's in the basement, which is a typical NA basement, so you have the uninsulated and below the frost line basement wall there. The…

If you are wearing clothing or any covering, clearly it isn’t your optimal temperature. I’m not trying to be glib here; I understand the appeal of being warm in a cool or even chilly room with air that keeps you from overheating. But that’s not sleeping at the optimal temperature; it’s choosing the sleeping setting you like.

And there are huge swaths of the world where the temperature basically never gets that low (18 C is the lowest temperature ever recorded in Kingston, Jamaica; 16 along the coast of west Africa, 18.9 in Jakarta). Even here in the southeastern US it is normal for temperatures to stay above 20 C at all times for three full months of the year (late June through early September).

Nothing wrong with liking to sleep in cold air, but it’s a preference.

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#108
post #101

"we’re the shortest sleeping primates, yet we pack in the most REM sleep relative to this short duration." Nothing surprising here. We sleep in cozy comfortable beds in a locked and secure location. Of course we'd can get int REM sleep. Compare to other primates who sleep outside with the critters and predators, deep sleep could mean the end of them.

My understanding is that REM isn't particularly deep. Quick web searches aren't actually defining it as more like light or deep sleep, but many of our systems are more active than other stages[1][2]. Still I don't think it's super surprising that we spend more time in REM since our brains are uniquely complex and we spend a lot of energy on perception and interpretation, which REM seems to help with [1][3]. And I would be willing to be safety and comfort also play a decent role in it as well!

1: https://www.healthline.com/health/how-much-deep-sleep-do-you... 2: https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthy-aging-and-longevity/r... 3: https://www.sleepfoundation.org/stages-of-sleep/rem-sleep

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18C is more like the maximum OK temperature. But then I also gotta sleep without PJs when its that hot. Still a blanket for comfort. Best sleep from my experience? It's usually about 5C at the thermostat, which is farthest from the window, by the time I wake up. And that's likely because it's in the basement, which is a typical NA basement, so you have the uninsulated and below the frost line basement wall there. The…

If you are wearing clothing or any covering, clearly it isn’t your optimal temperature. I’m not trying to be glib here; I understand the appeal of being warm in a cool or even chilly room with air that keeps you from overheating. But that’s not sleeping at the optimal temperature; it’s choosing the sleeping setting you like. And there are huge swaths of the world where the temperature basically never gets that low (1…

Your feeling might be different. But for me, body temperature and feeling is way different from the air I'm breathing.

I can be, actually want to be toasty warm under the blanket. But I want the air I am breathing to be fresh and cold. That is when I feel comfortable and "at peace".

I will often stick out my feet from under the blanket because it's way too toasty but the rest of my body needs to be warm.

Sure, when it's 25C I'll essentially just lay there without anything but a sheet across the chest to "feel safe" but anything else will just make me way too warm and the air I'm breathing will feel restricting.

What is really great in 25C+ temps is to be outside in a hammock without an underquilt, which cools things down considerably. But I've also slept comfortably at 0F (-18C) in a hammock. With two underquilts and a 0F sleeping bag as well as a winter tarp with doors and snow cover all around, weighing down the tarp sides (wind does suck at that temp ;)).

Re: Where Human Sleep Went Wrong

#110
post #101

"we’re the shortest sleeping primates, yet we pack in the most REM sleep relative to this short duration." Nothing surprising here. We sleep in cozy comfortable beds in a locked and secure location. Of course we'd can get int REM sleep. Compare to other primates who sleep outside with the critters and predators, deep sleep could mean the end of them.

Probably the only primates where a significant portion spent tens of thousands of years isolated up in the Arctic during prehistoric times.

Where the sun doesn't go down every single day anyhow, and you may need to trudge across the tundra routinely for more than 24 hours at a stretch to get almost anywhere, without ever worrying about it at all.

Then they later came down and intermixed with (not) everyone else, so you never know who is going to be less tired than "normal" when they work a 36-hour day.

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