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Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

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Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#291

Post by Grombobulous »

artisinal wrote: post #76
whateverboat wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Framework really caught everyone's attention with the fun DIY repair angle, but Dell/Lenovo/HP have been selling repairable laptops to IT departments for decades. Yeah, but does Dell allow you to change your laptop's mainboard for another mainboard with time? That is such a quantum leap. You do not have to adjust your self to a new keyboard just because you wanted a new processor.

A chassis is 10% of the cost of the laptop. Reusable chassis just to put new hardware in isn’t something the average consumer is interested in. Also, buying a new mainboard every few years and putting the old mainboard on a shelf is a lot less sustainable than buying a complete new laptop and selling your old laptop to someone.

Here's the thing: this argument you are making has made the assumption that Framework laptops are a huge compromise versus just buying a regular laptop. This line of thought assumes we are giving up something to get modularity and repairability, and that value proposition doesn't make sense compared to selling your used laptop and buying a new one from a traditional manufacturer.

This argument is flawed for two major reasons:

1. You can do perform the exact same non-modular ownership experience with a Framework laptop. It's just a regular laptop. You don't have to use the modularity or repairability at all. You can treat it like any other laptop and sell it when you're done and buy a new one.

2. Framework systems are getting increasingly competitive over time. The 13 Pro is quite competitive in its field and is one of the best options in its size/price/use case category. What other Panther Lake laptop is offering a drastically superior value? I'm looking for a portable system with long battery life (Intel Panther Lake) that is primarily for text work and coding while being capable of decent gaming on the side (Nothing crazy, the X7 Panther Lake chip gives me enough GPU usage for my needs). I did a ton of research and basically narrowed down my list to the ThinkPad X9 15p Aura Edition and the ASUS Zephyrus G14. Last I checked the ThinkPad was roughly 10% cheaper with an equivalent spec, the OLED screen is lower PPI and worse for text work, the battery lasts 5 hours shorter performing office productivity tasks (Just Josh's testing methodology), and the webcam is/was broken in Linux. The 15" screen is almost exactly as tall but it's wider, I call that neutral to negative for backpackability (3:2 screen ratio is lovely). On the plus side, the ThinkPad does push more power to the CPU/GPU, improving overall performance compared to the Framework. The ASUS Zephyrus is only in the same price category if I buy the 2025 model which has more compromises compared to the current model, especially for non-gaming battery life (no Panther Lake). Even if I open up my wallet to buy the 2026 model, I am missing out on things like a haptic trackpad, and of course, if we think Framework's support/repair experience is lacking, we don't even want to talk about ASUS RMA horror stories.

Other Panther Lake options with the X7 356H:

HP Omnibook 7 16, $1419: too big, off-center keyboard with numpad (don't like), low PPI display.

Acer Swift 16 AI, $1549: too big, off-center keyboard w/numpad, 16GB soldered RAM, non-premium chassis, no charge port on the right side, loud fans

LG Gram Pro 16, $2999: more expensive than the Framework 13 Pro with same specs

ASUS ExpertBook Ultra 14, $3599: more expensive than the Framework 13 Pro with same specs

Of course, Framework's other systems like the 12, 16, and base 13 are not really as competitive as the 13 Pro in my mind, but still, I think there's this whole vibe like Framework buyers are really giving up a lot of basic laptop things and paying way more to get modularity. This was much more true 5 years ago, not so much today now that Framework has been selling in higher volumes and refining their designs over the years.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#292

Post by akho »

rstat1 wrote: post #202
akho wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own the "original" gen11 Intel Framework 13. This is a company that wasn't able to ship a working RTC battery, a touchpad that would register a click when a physical click happened, a screen hinge that would reliably hold the screen in an upright position, or a USB-A port that wouldn't consume a watt of power when unused. You expect way too much engineering from them.

I also had one of this 11th Gen Intel FW13s, and the RTC battery on mine worked for a short time because they for some reason used some garbage rechargeable one with a 2 yr lifespan instead of the more common not-rechargeable battery that every other PC vendor uses with seemingly 10x the lifespan

Yep. Cheapest one from AliExpress works with no issues for four years now, so I shudder to think where they got the ones they shipped.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#293

Post by krabizzwainch »

testing22321 wrote: post #272
EastSmith wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In comparison to MacBooks ... I can buy 3rd party: RAM, SSD, WI-FI,random Expansion cards from the marketplace. I can open and clean and change thermal paste, etc. I've heard the display can be bought from alibaba, etc. I can't even open my Mac.

> change thermal paste You know what’s even better than easily changed thermal paste? A laptop that doesn’t need it changed. Land Rover guys love to say how easy they are to repair, and forget to mention they need ten times as many repairs as other vehicles.

ALL thermal paste ages. There is no thermal paste that never needs to be changed.

Thats like BMW saying their transmission fluid never needs to be refilled. It absolutely does, its just financially more lucrative for them if the transmission explodes and you have to buy a new one or a whole new car.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#294

Post by DANmode »

petterroea wrote: post #275
DANmode wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are pretty pricy Stop buying new. Great retired business machines on eBay daily.

I don't disagree, but consider that second hand machines are of unknown state, and often have no (or limited) warranty. Just like with a second hand car, there is a higher maintenance burden. How does an average joe know if a machine on ebay is great? If the answer is "they have to learn how to spot a good one", it is already an increased burden. People like you and I are happy with this, but the average person could…

99.9% to 100% feedback over 10,000 transactions has done the trick for me. EZ.

People would buy refurbs a lot more if they were more noticeable/marketed. People “want” whatever electronics are on the shelf in front of them when it’s time to buy, if we’re talking general public now (I wasn’t trying to).

The main firms refurbing are also selling new, and so aren’t in a rush to eat their own lunch.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#295

Post by akho »

bdavbdav wrote: post #274
akho wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own the "original" gen11 Intel Framework 13. This is a company that wasn't able to ship a working RTC battery, a touchpad that would register a click when a physical click happened, a screen hinge that would reliably hold the screen in an upright position, or a USB-A port that wouldn't consume a watt of power when unused. You expect way too much engineering from them.

Heh, I remember the “remove the USB A” debacle when I had my OG. That thing really hacked me off generally. Coming from a MBP 2016 that sipped power, the battery anxiety was real (especially standby drain), and I spent more time than I’d care to admit tweaking tlp to be still a pretty poor drain. Then the backlight would only work in certain positions. Love the dream, but it got sold and replaced by a MBP of 2x the p…

Well, at least I haven't had the backlight issue.

I did eventually tweak it to a very particular state where it had decent idle power use. Of course, it had to be re-tweaked occasionally.

Apart from that laptop, I've only ever used good-gen Thinkpads (and I'm back on one; the Framework now lives on my son's desk). The whole "we ship a screwdriver" gimmick gets old fast if you have to use that screwdriver on a regular basis (_of course_ they couldn't just use Phillips screws).

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#296

Post by krabizzwainch »

bdavbdav wrote: post #274
akho wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own the "original" gen11 Intel Framework 13. This is a company that wasn't able to ship a working RTC battery, a touchpad that would register a click when a physical click happened, a screen hinge that would reliably hold the screen in an upright position, or a USB-A port that wouldn't consume a watt of power when unused. You expect way too much engineering from them.

Heh, I remember the “remove the USB A” debacle when I had my OG. That thing really hacked me off generally. Coming from a MBP 2016 that sipped power, the battery anxiety was real (especially standby drain), and I spent more time than I’d care to admit tweaking tlp to be still a pretty poor drain. Then the backlight would only work in certain positions. Love the dream, but it got sold and replaced by a MBP of 2x the p…

I still don't understand we are comparing a brand new company's engineering to Apple, who have been making laptops for what, 40 years now? Apple's GPUs used to over heat a fry the laptop. They used to make keyboards that would fully break because of a piece of dust, but they were riveted down so they were irreplaceable. Titanium powerbooks had hinges that would break in a year.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#297

Post by iamjackg »

63 wrote: post #191
jszymborski wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had this sort of thing happen with a Dell XPS, and their response was "purchase a new laptop". While it would be great if we had stronger consumer protection, for both economic and environmental reasons I prefer the Framework approach.

When you purchase a new laptop, you can choose a different manufacturer who may have a more durable product. When you have a framework, you're forced to buy the same component from the same company that made it poorly in the first place, if it's even in stock.

While that's true, I'd still rather replace a single component rather than turn a whole laptop into e-waste.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#298

Post by cschep »

Grombobulous wrote: post #286
mrheosuper wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying if your laptop is out of warranty, they are free to do everything they want without any responsibilities ? Like if this update bricked like thousands of out of warranty laptop, they are still free to go?

This sounds like an extension of my logic beyond my meaning. This implication is that any manufacturer can just brick devices en masse, perhaps even on purpose, with no consequence or recourse, which is not at all what I was saying. Here's a little story to frame this a little better and help you understand my meaning: My second-to-last MacBook Pro before I quit the Apple platform was the 2016 MacBook Pro with the bu…

You've given so much data about why it's reasonable for hardware to fail. I get it. Hardware fails. In the Apple example that keyboard shit was unequivocally WRONG. They eventually admitted that and offered a fix. They handled it poorly. But they did acknowledge it. IT WASN'T AN OPTIONAL SOFTWARE UPDATE EITHER HOLY SHIT.

Also in your example with google..

.. why did you resolve to stop buying Google products? ..

5% of all hardware fails, google can't possibly make things perfect, blah blah fucking blah, same fucking argument applies. They didn't do it on purpose! They can't make all hardware perfect! How dare we expect them to do the right thing?

Because the way they handled that case was WRONG. Framework is WRONG. Apple's keyboard's were horrific and their response sucked but at least they tried to respond and tried to make it right on some level?

Framework have calculated that doing the right thing here is too expensive and they (so far!) aren't doing it. That pisses me off. It should piss you off too. Defending them is wild. They don't care about you. Their behavior is WRONG.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#299

Post by akho »

krabizzwainch wrote: post #296
bdavbdav wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, I remember the “remove the USB A” debacle when I had my OG. That thing really hacked me off generally. Coming from a MBP 2016 that sipped power, the battery anxiety was real (especially standby drain), and I spent more time than I’d care to admit tweaking tlp to be still a pretty poor drain. Then the backlight would only work in certain positions. Love the dream, but it got sold and replaced by a MBP of 2x the p…

I still don't understand we are comparing a brand new company's engineering to Apple, who have been making laptops for what, 40 years now? Apple's GPUs used to over heat a fry the laptop. They used to make keyboards that would fully break because of a piece of dust, but they were riveted down so they were irreplaceable. Titanium powerbooks had hinges that would break in a year.

And Apple are still unable to master cables that don't fray within a few months of use.

I still don't see how Framework's relative youth compensates my issues.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#300

Post by Grombobulous »

Grombobulous wrote: post #291
artisinal wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A chassis is 10% of the cost of the laptop. Reusable chassis just to put new hardware in isn’t something the average consumer is interested in. Also, buying a new mainboard every few years and putting the old mainboard on a shelf is a lot less sustainable than buying a complete new laptop and selling your old laptop to someone.

Here's the thing: this argument you are making has made the assumption that Framework laptops are a huge compromise versus just buying a regular laptop. This line of thought assumes we are giving up something to get modularity and repairability, and that value proposition doesn't make sense compared to selling your used laptop and buying a new one from a traditional manufacturer. This argument is flawed for two major…

To add to point #1, the depreciation rate on framework systems seems quite low compared to competition when I check eBay, since any model you buy is compatible with all the parts and upgrades. There’s much lower buyer risk with a 5 year old framework than there is with a 5 year old Dell.
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