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Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

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Re: Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

#81
post #72

Intelligence vs Knowledge LLMs work is being intelligent not having knowledge of everything is ok. But, they have to be intelligent enough (with some degree of knowledge) that where to find the information (search tools or any other tools for that matter)

LLMs are not intelligent. Please don't anthropomorphize.

I know they are just next token predictors. However, Our learning also started with that only. They moved from Alphabets to sentences. Intelligence is what AGI stands for and that's still in distant future. But, we need to push them for AGI. That's the ultimate goal of humanity for now. Finger Crossed for AGI in our lifetime.

After that Space colonization will come.

Re: Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

#82
post #65

You can look at the benchmark and the GPT-5 failures like answering "April 22, 2019" instead of the correct "Oct 23, 2018" for the question: What day, month, and year was Carrie Underwood's album "Cry Pretty" certified Gold by the RIAA? If your idea of the smartest person in the world is the guy who always wins tuesday night pub trivia, this blog post is for you. It also gets it's foundational factual claim wrong (as…

Not sure what you're trying to claim here tbh - Oct 23, 2018 is what the answer checker is looking for, it correctly judged "April 22, 2019." as incorrect: https://logs.epoch.ai/inspect-viewer/c79c08da/viewer.html?lo... (row 10, I don't see a way to link directly) and the correct answer matches the Wikipedia article's claim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cry_Pretty and the RIAA's site it uses as a citation: https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?reload=1786913260239&tab...

Re: Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

#83
post #72

Intelligence vs Knowledge LLMs work is being intelligent not having knowledge of everything is ok. But, they have to be intelligent enough (with some degree of knowledge) that where to find the information (search tools or any other tools for that matter)

LLMs are not intelligent. Please don't anthropomorphize.

At least later-era Wittgenstein would disagree with you.

Re: Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

#84
post #68

Ideally what I'd like to see is pluggable knowledge bases. So if I'm e.g. coding a SwiftUI app for navigation, I'd take 9B of basic coding and reasoning, add 10B of swift/swiftUI, add 5B of GIS/geography knowledge and another 5B of frontend app design knowledge. My model doesn't need to know a single line of python. Then when I want to research electronics components, I grab a 15B model of agentic research techniques…

The problem with this idea is that knowing Python makes the model a better Swift programmer, as does a higher-number of parameters during training. So you'd be so much better off with a 90B general purpose model trained on everything anyway.

Except assuming a fixed budget of parameters, there is clearly stuff that's better for programming than others. E.g. Qwen 27b is a better coding model than Gemma 4 31B. More params doesn't automatically win. Perhaps what makes a good swift programming model is a ton of python training, so those two things can't be separated - but that doesn't negate the idea of loading a model that's good at the specific task you want - or has specific knowledge of the libraries and tools for the language you're using at the expense of the ones you're not using.

Re: Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

#85
This AI generated post (100% on Pangram) is pretty out of date.

>On SimpleQA, a benchmark of factual recall with no tools allowed, the current leader is Gemini 2.5 Pro at 53%, so the best recall money can buy still misses half the questions.

SimpleQA hasn't been updated in a long time. Gemini 2.5 Pro is a sixteen-month-old model, not "the best recall money can buy".

>The part I find most promising is what this does to hallucination. When a fact lives in weights, a wrong fact is unfindable and unfixable.

This seems confused. LLM hallucinations don't come from the weights containing "wrong facts", they are artifacts that appear at runtime.

>When the fact lives outside the model, a wrong answer has an address. The model cites a document, so you can open the document. If the document is wrong, you edit the document

You can make any modern LLM explain its reasoning and find sources for its claims. None of this has anything to do with facts needing to exist in weights or in harnesses.

The internet is full of wrong information and I cannot magically edit it to make it all correct, so this doesn't help me.

>if a model is factually wrong a claim with a source is checkable and a claim from weights isn't.

Why? If a model's weights claim that Bart Simpson became President in 2020, why does this fact suddenly become uncheckable?

Re: Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

#87
post #14

This makes hallucination detection more important. There's no reason that an LLM should have a vast number of obscure facts encoded. It can go out to a search engine for such facts. But the LLM has to be clear on what it doesn't know. (Google's pricing for search from programs starts at $2.50 per 1,000 queries. If an LLM reaches out to Google, it has to pay.)

The article really just glosses over this. Just because a model doesn’t kno a fact does not mean it will go and fetch it, the model just as well can invent the fact. For that to not happen the model needs to know that it’s missing the information and I don’t see the article making any explanation how this improves.

I wonder what’s tre latest in this field? Did we get a grip on this problem?

Re: Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

#89

Ideally what I'd like to see is pluggable knowledge bases. So if I'm e.g. coding a SwiftUI app for navigation, I'd take 9B of basic coding and reasoning, add 10B of swift/swiftUI, add 5B of GIS/geography knowledge and another 5B of frontend app design knowledge. My model doesn't need to know a single line of python. Then when I want to research electronics components, I grab a 15B model of agentic research techniques…

(Inexpert ramblings follow)

Part of the problem of this is likely that the deep meanings of words you might use in chat to describe a business problem or task that you wish to see implemented are essentially inseparable from scenarios in which they are used.

Putting aside the bouba/kiki effect and anything like it, complex words only have meanings from usage. That usage is built on grammatical structures that also emerged only from usage.

(This is something I was taught as a sort of fact but I gather it was basically abbreviated Wittgenstein? … who I cannot claim to have studied)

So what you're looking for is a language model where fundamental word meanings are encoded without the weight of knowledge of where they come from. This is plainly difficult, because complex words are used by extension and analogy, and these days, many are neologisms or portmanteaus, even ephemerally — developed and discarded within a single context.

Reasoning about language itself to its full meaning is quite hard.

Like my favourite word of the moment: "obscurantist". You see that and you have a glimmer of what it might convey. But why do you? How much of that comes from explicit grammatical knowledge of suffixes, and how much from simple experience of using words like obscured, informant, attendant, dentist, artist?

So a language model might be able to deduce what "obscurantist" logically means when applied to a tract or to a person. But without lots of parameters covering its use, could it properly grasp that in some circles it would be pejorative to the point of being deeply offensive?

I think the best hope for your pluggable knowledge base idea is model delegation: strong reasoning models that know how to dictate to smaller specialist models and draw conclusions from their responses. I find myself wondering if there's any way that can be done the same way that, say, Gemma 4 12B's integrated vision encoder works — within shared weights, somehow, without them to speak in some intermediate language, like a partitioned brain. But I find it difficult to believe that is pluggable at all.

Re: Models Are Getting Dumber on Purpose

#90
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think reading lips helps you understand people?

That's still not hearing. Hearing has volume, direction, pitch, it's spacial processing etc

Laurel / yanny has entered the chat. Hearing is also psycho, not just acoustic.
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