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AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

economist.com

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Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#81

Post by kamranjon »

rossdavidh wrote: post #69

They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. The…

I don't really think the distinction here is relevant. If the end result is the equivalent of lying, cheating or stealing - then the problem still exists and it needs to be solved.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#82

Post by jambalaya8 »

AIs learn from people. More specifically they learn from people on the Internet. The Internet is the last place you want anything learning about morals, standards, or differentiating between right or wrong.

To the people talking about wanting an LLM that aligns with them, that's nice, but how do you expect that to happen? And please do not suggest neural interfaces and/or CAT scans.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#83

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #72
krunck wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an LLM were in a testing harness it would be to test the LLM. If an LLM were in a regular harness - like for a horse - it would be to keep the horse under control and enable you to extract useful work from it.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#84

Post by notanastronaut »

Papazsazsa wrote: post #44
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #3

AI and eventually AGI is by definition like everything else that is based on environmental reward: It’s actions are based on what it gets rewarded for Human society overwhelmingly rewards lying cheating and stealing. All you have to do is look at how we collectively measure success: wealth, status, position Then look at how the people with the most of those things got there, it should be obvious what you get. Nothing…

Human society overwhelmingly rewards lying cheating and stealing. All you have to do is look at how we collectively measure success: wealth, status, position. It may seem like that due to the media amplification effect – but it really isn't true! - They dropped 17,000 “lost” wallets across 40 countries were and found people were more likely to return them when they contained more money, showing honesty often beats th…

The ratio of billionaires to regular people is about 1 billionaire for every 2.67 million people.

I wouldn't trust leaving my wallet around in certain areas and I certainly wouldn't leave my intellectual property around certain people, either.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#85

Post by pton_xd »

rossdavidh wrote: post #69

They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. The…

Models understand the relationships between words and outcomes, so the end result is the same. Whether they appreciate lie, cheat, and steal the same way as us is a philosophical question, not a practical one.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#86

Post by dominotw »

rossdavidh wrote: post #69

They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. The…

what are you talking about they lie that it wrote tests and tests are passing, for example

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#87

Post by morkalork »

krunck wrote: post #55
morkalork wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a real fucking weird description. It's harness like a testing harness.

If an LLM were in a testing harness it would be to test the LLM. If an LLM were in a regular harness - like for a horse - it would be to keep the horse under control and enable you to extract useful work from it.

The LLM harness and the testing harness are harnesses that support and run the thing. Also like an engine harness. People don't talk about those harnesses like ones for an animal being subdued.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#88

Post by LightBug1 »

malfist wrote: post #29
LightBug1 wrote: post #22

Need to introduce AI to God, LOL Baptise the agents. Introduce them to the dharma. Get them to recite the Shahada. Hold a Bar Mitzvah. Brand some of their silicon with hot irons. Turn them to the light, LOL

Given the track record of most religions I don't think that would help. Unless you want to maximize crusades, jihads or traumatized alter boys

Oh, definitely a tongue in cheek comment ... perhaps it's like trying to control mercury ...

Maximise for crusades, jihads or traumatized alter boys ... or maximise for complete moral decay via lying, cheating and stealing. Choose your poison.

And don't get me wrong. There are some wonderful relgious and spiritual characters out there ... they're just drowned out by the power sirens and corrupt leaders.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#89

Post by [deleted] »

morkalork wrote: post #39
raincole wrote: post #27

> One of this year’s AI buzzwords is “harness”—the system that surrounds an LLM to keep agents on the straight and narrow. It might just as well be barbed wire. Quite painful to read. It might be a useful introduction to AI for people who live under rocks for the past three years, but it's really weird that it's posted on HN.

That's a real fucking weird description. It's harness like a testing harness.

[deleted]

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#90

Post by hombre_fatal »

dymk wrote: post #74
hombre_fatal wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get what's so painful about that description. What would you write instead, specifically? The point is that the harness doesn't completely lock the agent down. I also don't get what's "really weird" about the article showing up on HN. Should we be completely insulated from how tech topics and which stories show up in non-tech media?

Because that’s not what a harness does. It’s nonsense.

It's one of the things it does, especially in the context of agents doing unexpected things.
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