Thinking the unthinkable • Hacker News Board

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#121

Post by bjourne » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:04 PM UTC

joonix wrote: post #23

brianchu wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea that one day people will try to optimize their genes, even if it's only self-selecting. Yet: 1) Hereditary factors can only explain a small part of the picture. Eliminating hereditary factors that predispose people to developing mental illnesses would only eliminate a fraction of the problem. Environmental factors play a huge role. 2) The point at which what you des…

But the CT shooter was never in trouble with the law and wasn't known to have any violent tendencies. And most people are not like the OP blogger: they aren't going to turn in their child to the authorities. A schizophrenic may not ever have violent tendencies. Then, one day a voice tells them to kill everyone. Meanwhile, someone without a mental illness has a moment of rage and threatens to kill a guy at a bar. Do w…

I'm betting on that you are completely wrong about that. That the signs were completely obvious to everyone around these guys. People knew that they were some deeply fucked up kids with huge mental problems long before they went on their killing sprees.

But mental illness is something incredibly shameful around the world and maybe even moreso in the US. Almost no parent will ever be able to admit that there might be something wrong with their children. And for the people around them, the most convenient path is to ignore the problem and say it's "a phase" they are going through.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#122

Post by Alex3917 » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:11 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #107

> Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. There are crazy people in every country on earth, many (most) of which have worse "health care" systems than the US; yet only in the US do kids shoot other kids with automatic weapons. I very much doubt it has anything to do with mental health (nowhere else in the world are young children medicated for being kids to such…

"(nowhere else in the world are young children medicated for being kids to such an extent as in the US, BTW)."

Virtually every single school shooter has been on SSRIs, and many people think these drugs have been the cause of the shootings. Already WaPo has reported that the CT shooter was on psychiatric medication, so we'll know for sure in a couple weeks when we get the tox screen back.

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

It's perhaps also worth noting that these sorts of mass school shootings were non-existent until after 1988, the year that Prozac came out.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#123

Post by dhimes » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:16 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #115

Firehed wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we limiting to firearm-related deaths? Within hours of the event in CT, there was another mass attack at a school in China - that one by knife, wounding twenty or so. While guns may have increased the severity of the damage, the lack of a gun did little to stop a similar event from taking place. People that want to do harm to others will find a way, and while there's something to be said for trying to lessen…

Precisely: the attack in china wounded twenty. As of this writing none were killed. The "severity of the damage" is a highly relevant measure, not something to dismiss. "...poor attempt at treating the symptom rather than the disease". Sorry, the symptoms (i.e. lots of people dead) are the problem here. My data pull was primarily for the countries mentioned earlier, I added some others I find relevant because I have…

In 2010 a similar attack occurred in China, and over twenty were killed.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#124

Post by mpweiher » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:17 PM UTC

tjaerv wrote: post #116

mpweiher wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outlawing is a straw man in that it is not the only option for regulation that would help. These things are not booleans! Countries with much tighter gun regulations than the US don't outlaw guns. They also don't prevent 100% gun violence. They just have less of it. A LOT less. So "Regulation of guns would absolutely help nothing" is just plain false. It would help some , as the numbers clearly state. It would not pr…

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. From the WaPo article:

"Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. "

So the other things that are claimed as "the root cause" here aren't even correlated...yet somehow the one thing that does correlate closely...

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#125

Post by onnn » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:23 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #94

onnn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm adding this to my list of counter examples, for when some tries to tell me I have to get my life together before I'll find a girlfriend.

It's something that we hear a lot. My naive non-american mind believes that it's not about finding a girlfriend, but finding the right person. It's preferable to have your life together for the former, but I'm not sure it makes much of a difference for the latter.

> My naive non-american mind

Does this sentiment not exist where you are from?

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#126

Post by mpweiher » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:35 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #123

mpweiher wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely: the attack in china wounded twenty. As of this writing none were killed. The "severity of the damage" is a highly relevant measure, not something to dismiss. "...poor attempt at treating the symptom rather than the disease". Sorry, the symptoms (i.e. lots of people dead) are the problem here. My data pull was primarily for the countries mentioned earlier, I added some others I find relevant because I have…

In 2010 a similar attack occurred in China, and over twenty were killed.

Do you mean this series of attacks? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–2...

If Wikipedia is correct, this was a whole series of attacks, sometimes with multiple assailants, with each attack having far fewer fatalities, so the point about reducing the damage stands.

Still awful.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#127

Post by Jach » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #107

> Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. There are crazy people in every country on earth, many (most) of which have worse "health care" systems than the US; yet only in the US do kids shoot other kids with automatic weapons. I very much doubt it has anything to do with mental health (nowhere else in the world are young children medicated for being kids to such…

> yet only in the US do kids shoot other kids with automatic weapons.

I guess you don't count child soldiers in Africa.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#128

Post by bermanoid » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:51 PM UTC

zekenie wrote: post #62

joonix wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be politically incorrect to say right now, but I think the genes associated with mental illnesses that have a tendency to lead to violence will be phased out by a future generation sometime within this century and the next. We'll soon enough try gun control. That won't stop mass killings. Then we'll try increased mental healthcare access. That won't do much because we'll struggle with the Constitutionality o…

Talk this over with a molecular biologist. Its never gonna happen. Some pathologies are (or have components that are) hereditary. Of those things, a handful are specific gene mutations or groups of mutations. These mental illnesses are so poorly understood... None (to my knowledge) have been shown to be genetic. And its not just that we haven't found the underlying genetic reason. There probably isn't an underlying g…

Mental illnesses are not understood at all, I'll agree with that.

I would be hesitant to assume that they're not genetic, though - I've personally decided not to have children entirely due to the fact that mental illness is so prevalent in my partner's family (about 50% of the current should have been treated for the same things that the "crazy" people have been hospitalized for.

DNA may only be one piece of the puzzle, but I think it's a big enough piece of that puzzle that we need to look into it a bit more. I can't recall the last truly "crazy" person I've interacted with that didn't have something messed up in their family history...

That said, epigenetics definitely could be the issue here, my partner is of Irish stock and that's one of the classic cases of epigenetic poisoning (the famines caused all sorts of epigenetic nastiness, a lot of which has been shown to persist for generations). I totally believe that some lineages have seriously detrimental baggage associated with them, and I believe that hers could be one of them.

In the end though, I don't know that there's much difference - a person's heritage, one way or another, ends up determining their children's susceptibility to mental illness, and if that susceptibility is high, a responsible "parent" should perhaps choose not to have the child.

Just my opinion. And to be fair, if everyone followed it and was a "responsible parent" (i.e. not having kids if your family history is fucking nutters), the woman I love would not have been born, so I don't hold it that dear...

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#129

Post by DanBC » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:54 PM UTC

adrianhoward wrote: post #92

I always get rather nervous when I see posts like this. Things like this obviously happen. However - statistically - people with mental illness are no more likely to commit violence than anybody else. See http://psychcentral.com/archives/violence.htm for example. When people with mental illness are violent it's usually for the same reason everybody else is. It's usually aimed at family when it does occur - not the wo…

Thank you.

There is a big difference between saying that people need better access to diagnosis and treatment, and saying that people need to be locked away before they've done anything.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#130

Post by sp332 » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 2:57 PM UTC

onnn wrote: post #125

GuiA wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something that we hear a lot. My naive non-american mind believes that it's not about finding a girlfriend, but finding the right person. It's preferable to have your life together for the former, but I'm not sure it makes much of a difference for the latter.

> My naive non-american mind Does this sentiment not exist where you are from?

My mother's family traveled all over Europe while she was growing up, and she picked a new boyfriend in each new school. She told me, she just never really considered not having a boyfriend, even if everyone involved knew it was pretty temporary. So it's not a purely US thing.