Live data from Hacker News

Thinking the unthinkable

anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com

41–50 of 462 posts

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#41
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from her sons perspective. Unfortunately, she doesn't deal with her son the way he needs to be dealt with. Stick him in-front a computer, surround him with electronics(DO NOT TAKE THEM AWAY, USE THEM AS THERAPY) and feed him. Nothing else... This is how your autist/aspy child becomes a brilliant geek. If you even attempt to program them in the NORMAL way, they will do nothing but, reject, and yes, call you…

Maybe, he'll be the next Steve or Bill. Perhaps, he'll be the next Gary Mckinnon. Or the next Hans Reiser.

Or the next person you've never heard of, because he hasn't achieved noteworthy success in business, homicide, and/or the creation of filesystems. Normal outcomes do sometimes happen (hence the name), but they don't get as much publicity.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#42
post #16

Post like this terrify me. What if there isn't anything that can be done? It seems like there are some people that are just born broken or at some point they break. Men who experience schizophrenia it often stars in their late teens or early 20s, and late 20s/early 30s for women [1]. I had a friend in high school who was completely normal in every way. During his first year in college he literally just went crazy. It…

Story time! My brother (3 years younger) suffers from pretty much the same global disorder as described in the blog; the main difference is that we're in France (well, my family still is; I moved a few years ago). Throughout childhood, he presented a mix of pretty much every single psychological disorder possible- bipolar, paranoia, kleptomania, depression, etc. He was extremely manipulative, and knew how to be perfe…

I'm adding this to my list of counter examples, for when some tries to tell me I have to get my life together before I'll find a girlfriend.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#43
post #11

Outlaw guns, knives and rocks, and wink them out of existence, and these people are still there. Treat them, and some of them will come back. Outlawing guns doesn't solve this problem. But outlawing guns is the kind of "solution" we like, because a) there's a clear, specific action to argue over, and b) we can focus on it long enough to get the law through and then fool ourselves into thinking we've done something.

Regulating guns ("outlawing" is a straw man) ameliorates the problem of how much damage a mentally disturbed person can do. A knife in the same situation is much less dangerous, as evidenced by the incident in China at the same time where people were hurt, but none so far killed. Degrees matter.

It wasn't meant as a straw man, it was meant as a way to identify a boundary. The most restrictive regulation possible would be a total ban, and only a total and successful ban would prevent people from using guns in massacres. So "regulation" while well intentioned is practically meaningless. Those people would still be mentally ill, and outlawing guns or some lesser regulation would not have addressed the actual problem.

And yes, a knife in the situation is less dangerous. But the person is still mentally ill, a danger to themselves and those around them.

It's medical treatment that's needed, in the worst cases combined with confinement.

Gun regulation is not medical treatment. Gun regulation is a separate issue, admittedly related, just as knives and baseball bats are related.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#44
post #12

Post like this terrify me. What if there isn't anything that can be done? It seems like there are some people that are just born broken or at some point they break. Men who experience schizophrenia it often stars in their late teens or early 20s, and late 20s/early 30s for women [1]. I had a friend in high school who was completely normal in every way. During his first year in college he literally just went crazy. It…

This may be politically incorrect to say right now, but I think the genes associated with mental illnesses that have a tendency to lead to violence will be phased out by a future generation sometime within this century and the next. We'll soon enough try gun control. That won't stop mass killings. Then we'll try increased mental healthcare access. That won't do much because we'll struggle with the Constitutionality o…

The truth is that humans, like all other animals, have been selective breeding all the time, it's called evolution. We select our mates based on their phenotypes (like aggression, intelligence etc). It was more so in the past than now. People used to abandon infants that are born "defective" (we now have abortions). Parents selected the mates for their children because they are believed to be better judges of "good" phenotypes. It was customary to ensure that the family of the respective mate has no members with mental illness. Yet, after millennia of selective breeding, we still have all the crazies among us. The fact that those "bad" genes still exist must mean that they confer some benefits to the carrier.

The interplay between genes, RNA, proteins and other macromolecules is so complex that I doubt we can pin down a mental illness to a single gene or safely remove a mutation that causes mental illness from the gene pool without reducing other collateral beneficial traits.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#45
post #12

Post like this terrify me. What if there isn't anything that can be done? It seems like there are some people that are just born broken or at some point they break. Men who experience schizophrenia it often stars in their late teens or early 20s, and late 20s/early 30s for women [1]. I had a friend in high school who was completely normal in every way. During his first year in college he literally just went crazy. It…

This may be politically incorrect to say right now, but I think the genes associated with mental illnesses that have a tendency to lead to violence will be phased out by a future generation sometime within this century and the next. We'll soon enough try gun control. That won't stop mass killings. Then we'll try increased mental healthcare access. That won't do much because we'll struggle with the Constitutionality o…

I think gene therapy and possibly selective abortion would be common as well. People won't leave someone they love because of some simple genetic tests when there are other alternatives.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Maybe, he'll be the next Steve or Bill. Perhaps, he'll be the next Gary Mckinnon." Or maybe something will trigger him at age 20 and he makes good on his threats. > "This mom seems to be (insanely)attempting to program a NOT-Normal-Child into a Normal-Child." Because the "not normal" side of the child is violent, cunningly manipulative, and possibly homicidal. There is a line at which we draw acceptable behavior -…

"When a child has demonstrable, repeated, unpredictable..." If its repeatable, its definitely predictable now. Thank you for the person who posted this method( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pivotal_response_therapy ), it was unknown to me before, but it seems to be what could be attempted in a majority of these situations. As far as anyone becoming more isolated...Why does a person have to be social in the first place…

You clearly have it figured out. You should call this woman have arrange to have the kid live with you for a few months. I'm sure he will be cured.

Your last two comments may be the stupidest things I have ever heard. I would love to know more about you and know why you think you can fix such a complex problem in < 200 words.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that clockwork-orange style behavior modification or remote "kill switches" in people are never socially acceptable answers to this problem :(

That seems like the most humane way to go. I don't see anyone else in this thread doing anything more than throwing their hands up in the air saying that it's a problem too difficult to solve, including you. So, rather than poo-poo my ideas, how about offering up your own?

You're right that there are no easy answers, especially for the mentally ill who may not be treatable. [Note: I come from NZ, so the perspective of a largely state-run health system].

I think that humane mental institutions would be a much better alternative to prison or surgical intervention.

A lot of people were locked up in mental institutions right up until the late 80s, early 90s. Often, people who should not have really been in them. I know people who were seriously fried by drugs administered largely to induce docility, and the brutal ECT of 50s-70s.

There were some serious problems with the way these institutions were run which were very difficult to fix. The pendulum has swung towards community care. In NZ at least, most of the mental hospitals have closed. The mentally ill were flooded back into the community. To be fair, the problems with the system were so severe that this was not an entirely bad outcome. Many have done well in the community.

From here we can divide the mentally ill into two classes: those who manage to function in the community, and those who end up in prison or dead. Sometimes it's the degree of social support they have which makes the difference, while some simply cannot be treated.

I think the pendulum needs to swing the other way a little. We need to identify the truly dangerous and incurable and care for them in humane environments before they hurt themselves or others.

Identifying when this needs to be done and ensuring the system works properly is obviously an incredibly difficult problem. Essentially you will be locking people up based on psychiatric diagnoses for things they haven't done yet. However in the current scheme of things even clear pleas from family members for intervention are ignored.

As an aside, I'd like to point out that you're proposing to take people who might be psychotic or schizophrenic, and implant remote control devices in them.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#48
post #9

Thank god a post like this was brought up. This incident in CT has undoubtedly brought up a national debate about gun control, but I hope to God it sparks a debate about mental illness, the real cause behind all of these mass shootings.

Amen to that. Thanks for upvoting it (I assume), rather than flagging it. I had some doubts about posting this vis a vis the guidelines, but thought it was important, especially given the stridently political nature of all the discussion I've seen about the shooting in CT on here thus far.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Maybe, he'll be the next Steve or Bill. Perhaps, he'll be the next Gary Mckinnon." Or maybe something will trigger him at age 20 and he makes good on his threats. > "This mom seems to be (insanely)attempting to program a NOT-Normal-Child into a Normal-Child." Because the "not normal" side of the child is violent, cunningly manipulative, and possibly homicidal. There is a line at which we draw acceptable behavior -…

"When a child has demonstrable, repeated, unpredictable..." If its repeatable, its definitely predictable now. Thank you for the person who posted this method( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pivotal_response_therapy ), it was unknown to me before, but it seems to be what could be attempted in a majority of these situations. As far as anyone becoming more isolated...Why does a person have to be social in the first place…

> "He's SO SMART his brain is brute-forcing social methods of manipulation in order to obtain/achieve a goal/objective."

This seems like wild supposition to me. We know that the child has wild mood swings and alternates between "normal" and "manipulative and violent". I don't think it's clear at all that his behavior is due to raw intelligence. To be more blunt, this seems like armchair psychology with nothing in the blog post (or the other cases referenced in this thread) to support this perspective.

There needs to be substantial support if we are to believe that a child that experiences psychotically violent phases is doing so for logically sound reasons, because our current understanding of disorders such as this point in the opposite direction.

> "As far as anyone becoming more isolated...Why does a person have to be social in the first place"

I think you're conflating two issues. There is indeed no reason to force anyone to be social - but the reality is that even in the 21st century it is practically impossible to lead a life without social contact. Even the most ardent hermit must interact with the rest of the world at some point.

The question here, in the context of the tragedy that occurred this week, is not about the child. It is about whether or not, if left alone without interference, the child will eventually pose a substantial threat to society at large. It's about the state of mental health care in this country and whether or not people like this child need to be "fixed".

And when it comes to explosively violent people - particularly people who can be set off by unpredictable triggers (the child's mother, after caring for him for years still has no handle on his triggers, and there is no real reason to believe the mother is unbelievably daft) - I emphatically believe that it is correct to pathologize this behavior.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#50
post #16

Post like this terrify me. What if there isn't anything that can be done? It seems like there are some people that are just born broken or at some point they break. Men who experience schizophrenia it often stars in their late teens or early 20s, and late 20s/early 30s for women [1]. I had a friend in high school who was completely normal in every way. During his first year in college he literally just went crazy. It…

Story time! My brother (3 years younger) suffers from pretty much the same global disorder as described in the blog; the main difference is that we're in France (well, my family still is; I moved a few years ago). Throughout childhood, he presented a mix of pretty much every single psychological disorder possible- bipolar, paranoia, kleptomania, depression, etc. He was extremely manipulative, and knew how to be perfe…

Hi, thank you for sharing.

My question is, do you think your brother is better off now than he would have been had he been institutionalized?

Post reply on HN