Earlier quoted context omitted.
I (unfortunately) think that the NY AG screwed up our opportunity to press that question by aiming nationally. The CFTC got to skip that and just shut down the national TRO. I'd love to see another state push for a state-specific restriction and see how that plays out.
Except they haven't, because they did not request national relief. They requested state-specific relief.
CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
81–90 of 226 posts
Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#82EDIT: see DannyBee's comment below ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49266746 ). It does look like the CFTC has extrapolated the "nationwide" out of either some novel interpretation of the filing or just entirely fabricated it as their justification for their action. I've got no love for Kalshi, but "orders Kalshi to continue operate in New York" doesn't seem to be present anywhere in the actual release. The art…
> These are financial exchanges that offer financial instruments and operate across state lines. They match the bid from a resident of one state with the offer of a resident from another state and submit the trade to a clearinghouse that backstops the transactions of customers throughout the country. New York has no business regulating these interstate financial markets.
If true, it seems quite irrelevant that NY is limiting its suit to NY customers. NY would be restricting trade to people in other states. (I am not a fan or user of Kalshi)
Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#83Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#84So the CFTC frames Kalshi as a financial derivatives exchange for the financial instrument category of event contracts, dismissing NYs characterization of it as a gambling/betting platform. Interesting.
What exactly is the difference between a financial derivatives exchange and a gambling platform? Both involve placing bets on uncertain future outcomes.
Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Lawyer here: https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/court-filings/new-york... This is the complaint. If you go to page 29 you'll see what they requested. The claim they are trying to prevent them from offering all event contracts nationwide is simply false. The closest anywhere is a claim to enjoin them from violating some federal criminal statutes that they would not be violating if they were not operating in new yor…
Edited my earlier comment to point here. Is your assessment that CFTC is pulling the broader impact fully out of the air, or are likely to try to spin the coverage of events in New York for participants outside of New York as counting as interstate commerce?
The "emergency powers" they speak of are 7 U.S.C. § 12a(9), and they are quite specific.
It gives them the authority to direct a registered entity to do a few specific things. None of those things are relevant to here. It's stuff like emergency margin requirements, position limits, etc. Not "violate state law". It gives them no power to enable a registered entity to violate a TRO, or anything like that. Such a power would have to come through pre-emption.
The CEA gives them zero authority to preempt state law directly, and any pre-emption would have to be argued to already have occurred under the Commodity Exchange Act. They'll argue it occurs because of their order, but it actually doesn't meet the requirements to do that, so then they'll argue the CEA preempts state law.
As you may imagine, this has been argued about before, for a very very very long time.
Gambling is core state police power, and has been found so many times. As such, presumptions against pre-emption would apply, etc. Even in the current court that ignores precedent, using an esoteric made-for-specific-situations emergency power statute like this one would to preempt new york/etc (this is not the only case) law would run clearly afoul of the so-called major questions doctrine.
Lastly, the current CEA regulations actually ban event contracts that are unlawful under state law (17 CFR 40.11):
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/17/40.11
Prohibition. A registered entity shall not list for trading or accept for clearing on or through the registered entity any of the following: ...
1. (1) An agreement, contract, transaction, or swap ... that involves, relates to, or references terrorism, assassination, war, gaming, or an activity that is unlawful under any State or Federal law;
So trying to pre-empt state law when the existing regulations clearly don't allow event contracts that are disallowed under state law is ... not likely to succeed.
Also note that New York has claimed a violation of the wire act in there, and in particular 18 U.S.C. § 1084(a). This is a federal statute that makes it illegal to transmit sports betting information over the wire (it's okay if it's from a jurisdiction where it's legal to a jurisdiction where it's legal). They have asked the court to enjoin them from violating this. This claim is here because it avoids all the pre-emption issues - it's a federal statute. So New York is also hedging their bets on the state preemption issue.
All that said, there is also a CFTC-designated contract market that Kalshi operates, and that they could likely exercise significantly more power over, and New York can order them around less on. But that is likely to end up in the supreme court, and harder to predict. Any other court the answer would be clear - congress doesn't have the authority to regulate purely intra-state gambling, etc.
Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
It seems that New York is asking the court for a temporary restraining order that would prohibit Kalshi from offering all event contracts nationwide. I also have zero love for Kalshi, but I can see why such a request would be concerning, regardless of whether I think Kalshi is a degenerate trash heap.
Yea; interstate commerce being the domain of the federal government is one of the more tested legal concepts we have here.
Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think insurance markets create risk out of thin air too?
Of course not. If a building exists, there is a risk it burns down. Insurance just moves that risk around. The only way to eliminate the risk is to not build anything anywhere.
Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#88> said Chairman Michael S. Selig. “Congress did not intend for derivatives exchanges to be regulated under a patchwork of state gaming laws. Ah yes, "derivatives" which are "not intended to fall under gaming laws" such as... *checks Kalshi website* 58 million dollars riding on which team is the 2027 NFL champion. Oh yeah, totally a financial derivative there, not related to gambling at all. *sigh*
ELI5 why it's better for you to place a $10,000 bet that, say, GOOG falls below $300 by February 2028, than to bet the same that the Pats win the Super Bowl? They're both gambling.
The thing that I suspect you're intending to describe, a put option expiring in January 2028 (there is no such contract for February) with a break-even at $300, has a different structure which greatly increases its utility for financial purposes and greatly decreases its appeal for gambling. It's hard for a casual bettor to even identify what the correct product is (it was the $355 strike at close of market today, but it may be different tomorrow!), bets are only accepted in increments of $5,500, and your winnings may be minimal unless Google falls either more quickly or more severely. If I'm trying to hedge my Google exposure, though, I'm perfectly happy with the scenario where I didn't win much because Google didn't go down much.
Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except it's false, they aren't requesting such a thing.
Not literally. I think the text in question is: "within or from New York or to persons in New York." Where CFTC is arguing that "from" would have interstate consequences. I'm not a legal expert, though, so I have no idea if something similar has been fought in court before. edit Interesting, I found KalshiEX LLC v. Flaherty [1] which seems strikingly similar to this case and was ruled in favor of Kalshi. "The Third C…
I'm not sure how to explain all this without writing a 70 page dissertation on HN, and it's probably not worth it :)
Overall - this is a wildly complicated area. To give you an idea how complicated: Ignoring state law, transmitting gambling information for sports events over the wire is a federal crime. See 18 U.S.C. § 1084(a), which makes it a crime for a person “engaged in the business of betting or wagering” knowingly to use an interstate or foreign wire facility to transmit bets/wagers or information assisting bets/wagers “on any sporting event or contest.”
(It's legal if you are transmitting from a jurisdiction where it's legal to a jurisdiction where it's legal).
This has been upheld repeatedly for sporting events.
New york can, and did, include a claim to enjoing them from violating this act, which has absolutely no pre-emption issue because it's not a state law.
The case you cited is going to end up in the supreme court, where it will be a toss up. (in previous supreme courts, it would be a non-starter and the third circuit would have been summarily reversed)
Re: CFTC declares market emergency, orders Kalshi to continue to operate in New York
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except they haven't, because they did not request national relief. They requested state-specific relief.
I see lots of back and forth over this very important point, which has to be either true or false. Can you point to sources?