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Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

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Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#271

Post by btilly »

ColinWright wrote: post #254
btilly wrote: post #184

This is a tragedy, but why is it on HN? From http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html we have: Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. That fits this story.

I said the same thing here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4922380 PG himself has chimed in to point out the words "most" and "probably". I'm with you, but we seem notto be in accord with the site owner.

It seemed to me that PG took a neutral stance.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#272

Post by opinali »

notdrunkatall wrote: post #248
recoiledsnake wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws made more sense during the 1700s than now. No one really has any chance now. You discount the entire industrial and technological progress that happened in the past 200 years.

I assume you're making the argument that a ragtag bunch of rebels wouldn't have a chance standing against an empire armed to the teeth with the latest war machines. If that is indeed the case, have you been paying attention to the news for the last decade?

There is a huge difference between some fourth-world dictatorships, and the US with its nukes, drones, intelligence, $700B/year budget.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#273

Post by ColinWright »

btilly wrote: post #271
ColinWright wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said the same thing here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4922380 PG himself has chimed in to point out the words "most" and "probably". I'm with you, but we seem notto be in accord with the site owner.

It seemed to me that PG took a neutral stance.

Felt a lot more to me that he was saying that the "most" and "probably" made this case an exception.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#274

Post by jlgreco »

schrototo wrote: post #245
notdrunkatall wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure he's being sarcastic.

Actually I'm not, but reading the post again I see how it could come off that way... (edit: at least to an American...)

The problem is with the concept of "need". I think very few people, even in the US, think that citizens should be allowed to have guns because they "need" them. The only possible exception I can think of is people living or hiking in remote areas where safety from wildlife can be a concern. You will find people who think that guns ownership should be permitted because they are needed in that edge case.

You are arguing against something few, if any, people believe. Americans think they should be allowed to own guns despite a need to have guns.

If that is reasonable or not is frankly irrelevant. Politics and legal realities make the elimination of all guns impossible. You are not being realistic if that is what you propose.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#275

Post by jlgreco »

opinali wrote: post #272
notdrunkatall wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you're making the argument that a ragtag bunch of rebels wouldn't have a chance standing against an empire armed to the teeth with the latest war machines. If that is indeed the case, have you been paying attention to the news for the last decade?

There is a huge difference between some fourth-world dictatorships, and the US with its nukes, drones, intelligence, $700B/year budget.

I think you have missed the point. The US DoD, with all of its nukes, drones, intelligence, and cash is having trouble with a "fourth-world dictatorship".

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#276

Post by sukuriant »

ceejayoz wrote: post #128
sukuriant wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was that "he with the gun holds the power" in those situations. And I'm sure the person with the gun feels like that. Make the odds of him having his tables turned on him by respectable law abiding citizens, and suddenly he'll be more afraid to do harm. Ideally. As a side note, she shouldn't shoot for the head anyway, especially if the bullet is going to go propelling out of the man. That's a great way to h…

> Make the odds of him having his tables turned on him by respectable law abiding citizens, and suddenly he'll be more afraid to do harm. Uh, we're talking about people who are frequently suicidal and are mentally ill enough to shoot up a kindergarten. I suspect they're not weighing odds in a logical manner, somehow.

I believe the parent post was speaking about a regular place in the city, not so much a school.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#277

Post by code4life »

ipince wrote: post #151
code4life wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to reduce the possibilities of a crime like this is to reduce the centralized system of public education. My family home schools our children. It coincidentally helps solve this particular problem. (Perhaps it also reduces the likelihood that we spread viruses like the flu). Making public education more distributed by the use of technology could certainly help with security.

How do you have them have social interactions with other children and adults? (Just curious since I believe it's extremely important).

Honestly, this is a lot easier than you can believe.

I can only speak for my family, but we spend lots of time with other families and children. Church, Boy Scouts, Soccer, etc.

Ask yourself, have you ever been in public and recognized a home schooler because of the way they act?

The inverse is true too, how many socially awkward people do you remember from your public schooling? I sure remember a lot.

From my personal experience, I don't see a relationship between home/public schooling and social relationships.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#278

Post by baddox »

r00fus wrote: post #238
baddox wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean false dichotomy, not straw man.

No, they're strawmen. Extreme positions that a very small percentage of people support - so you can knock them down and look like a reasonable figure as long as you don't support the extreme. Look at example 2.5 here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#Structure By reducing the argument to one extreme vs. another extreme, these are strawmen arguments... very few support either extreme, so the commenter can then k…

It's not a straw man. Go back and read JoeCortopassi's comment [0]. He didn't propose the argument then knock it down. He genuinely presented the argument as his own. He says neither will work unless implemented completely, then he recognizes that there are problems with either and that some crazy people will always be able to commit heinous crimes.

Your argument is that the two absolutes are not the only options, which is pointing out a false dichotomy. Of course, even that's not an appropriate response, since JoeCortopassi had already pointed out the potential problems (like excessive loss of personal liberty) with absolutes.

[0] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4922651

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#279

Post by tshaddox »

abstractbill wrote: post #198
JoeCortopassi wrote: post #129

Listen, there are two parts to this: 1. The horrible tragedy, and 2. The hopes to prevent this from happening again. If we are going to talk about this, we need to all fall under the assumption that we agree that this is both a very tragic act perpetrated by someone who is obviously disturbed/mentally ill, and that it is all of our desires to do what we can to make sure senseless acts of violence like this never happ…

It seems that there are two schools of thought (generalizing obviously): 1. Disarm everyone, and 2. Allow everyone to carry weapons. I think these are actually two extreme positions to which almost nobody seriously subscribes.

It depends whether "disarm everyone" is meant to include exceptions government law enforcement and legitimate hunters. If so, then I do think most people (in the USA, at least) subscribe to one of those schools of though.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#280

Post by onetwothreefour »

eik3_de wrote: post #185
JoeCortopassi wrote: post #129

Listen, there are two parts to this: 1. The horrible tragedy, and 2. The hopes to prevent this from happening again. If we are going to talk about this, we need to all fall under the assumption that we agree that this is both a very tragic act perpetrated by someone who is obviously disturbed/mentally ill, and that it is all of our desires to do what we can to make sure senseless acts of violence like this never happ…

Some data: In the US, there are about 3.45 homicides with firearms per 100,000 population per year. In Germany (where I live), this figure is 0.19, that is roughly factor 18.

Let's not bring logic and facts into an argument about guns with Americans.

The simple fact is that Americans are exceptional, so anything that happens outside the US is irrelevant.

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