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What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

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Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#901

Post by mancerayder »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #875
mancerayder wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I and my cohorts are forced back in the office four days a week. It's a miserable grind. Routine includes alarm, after a poor night of sleep, getting ready, commuting in, loud, bright offices where while you enjoy the convivial nature of joking and commiserating with colleagues, it's so distracting and noisy and visually distracting that you can't be productive technically. Next you go home at 6, 630, sleepy, go to t…

I remember feeling exactly the same way. When I got offered a work from home job in august of 2014 it felt like a magic portal into a dream life I always wanted, and it was for the first 6 years. Maybe it is my town, maybe it's me. But I just don't think it's healthy to wake up, walk down the stairs and sit in front of a computer for 8-15 hours every day, rinse and repeat. Maybe things would be different if I had the…

Hold on a second. You can get up between meetings, go for a jog, use a home gym, lay down and read, sit in your yard in the sun with your eyes closed, pet your dog, call your significant other or sit with them, shop for new shoes, study for a new job, take a video call from a recruiter, do your laundry, clean your bathroom, the list goes on.

Discipline is a personal problem not an office policy issue.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#902

Post by dec0dedab0de »

throwaway_7274 wrote: post #233
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #162

This dropped off the front page in the time I read it, I assume because of the controversial gate that favors upvotes to comments (which I am making worse by replying to others). It is a shame, because this really resonated with me. I've been working in tech for over 20 years now in various roles, and this is the least I have cared about it. I used to want to get better, and was constantly excited about learning new…

It’s funny, people are so different! I’d always taken it as an axiomatic Truth of the world that money doesn’t buy happiness. When I finally caved and took a high-paying job, I was shocked (shocked I tell you!) to find that it made my life a lot easier. So much breathing room :) This isn’t a disagreement or a hook into some discourse or anything. I don’t have a point. Just thoughts

I was the same way, and the same work from home job I took in 2014 was the first time I didn't have to worry about bills, or picking up the check for a nice dinner. Everything was immediately better in every measurable way.

The hidden tolls of what I've been missing have caught up with me.

I don't know if you were around hn when the soylent guys were posting on here, but at one point one of them was having problems because they left out some trace substance that only becomes an issue after a long time of not having it. That's how I see it, there are trace elements required for happiness that I discounted at a young age. I'm not sure what they are exactly, but I was getting them previously, while being miserable about the macro issues.

I brought up money, because I was specifically thinking of my best friend, and his friends, and others who all work in construction. They work way harder in a day than I have my entire life. They have a refined skillset that took decades to master. They are outdoors, sometimes in horrific conditions. They get to bullshit and joke and call each other a bitch. They get to come home and enjoy the simple things like cooking a burger on the grill, without feeling bad about missing an unreasonable deadline, or not filing a patent for those last 20 ideas that would change the world. They get to be strong and feel confident about their chances of winning a fist fight and have wives that understand and except their flaws.

Meanwhile I am over here with a pile of old electronics I don't want to give up because they have cool components I dream about using. I have sex with hundreds of women that I have no future with. I look intimidating at a glance, but have no muscle to back it up. My kid is an adult and doesn't need me anymore. It just feels pointless.

At some point I convinced myself that making more than most of my friends and family gave me worth. That I would be a loser if I switched careers to something more fulfilling that made less than 6 figures. I know in my heart that is not true, but I am still struggling to make the leap.

...sorry for spiraling at you, I am aparrently going through something at the moment.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#903

Post by nemo44x »

rayiner wrote: post #820
Macha wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also fails to distinguish between “society came out of it fine” (generally true) and “individuals came out of it fine” (much more mixed of a track record)

Yes. And individuals largely don’t come out fine. We have this notion of “retraining” but that’s not real. It’s like how studies show it’s very hard to make friends as an adult. Most people whose jobs were shipped overseas in deindustrialization never recovers.

We create 25% more new jobs that never existed before than jobs that are forever destroyed as obsolete every year. In the USA.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#904

Post by christkv »

This has been happening for a while before the LLMs coming around. A lot of people are over educated doing jobs you only need a high school diploma for if even that. There was a whole book published about this called bs job. Everyone knows people who are basically doing nothing of real value and in some cases actually negative value as they try to justify their paycheck. The amount of busywork with no value in big organizations is very high (private and public).

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#905

Post by estearum »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #900
estearum wrote: post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is?

IT broadly speaking is ~4.5% of the workforce in the US, 5% in the EU, last time I checked.

Do you think IT is the only field threatened by AI?

Must not spend much time talking to people in other fields.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#906

Post by alsetmusic »

estearum wrote: post #890
thegrim33 wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that one of those things actually happened, and the other one is your hypothetical extremist/exaggerated/worst possible case of what might happen this time.

the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero reason to think about events that haven't happened yet. you imbecile. you fucking moron"

I don't think they said that at all. I'm pretty sure they were saying that the thing to think about / discuss is the thing that happened, rather than the hypothetical.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#907

Post by mihaic »

strangegecko wrote: post #775
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being uncharitable. In fact, you're demonstrating the dynamics I spoke of in my post. I could give you a detailed response but, given your tone, instead I'll say: assume the best and don't make everything about yourself. Several people I know have struggled with negative mental health effects of finding themselves in a caretaker role for a mentally ill friend or partner. In my experience offline groups (not i…

FWIW, I had a similar impression of your comment as JohnMakin. > give the friend a subtle clue that it's time to move on If a friend needs someone to listen about life struggles and you tell them you're tired of it and don't want to hear it anymore, then you're not being a friend. Maybe you want to be encouraging and that is fine, probably helpful. But you immediately seem to turn that encouragement into threats of s…

As a person who has actually helped friends with depression, I can totally understand on the other hand where Karrot_Kream is coming from.

I think he wrote enough for an internet comment, and anyone should probably ask for more context instead of jumping to a negative conclusion.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#908

Post by estearum »

alsetmusic wrote: post #906
estearum wrote: post #890

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero reason to think about events that haven't happened yet. you imbecile. you fucking moron"

I don't think they said that at all. I'm pretty sure they were saying that the thing to think about / discuss is the thing that happened, rather than the hypothetical.

My own initial comment literally addressed the uncertainty.

Here:

> You can argue about whether the obsolescence is real or not, but if it is [emphasis in source], the plight of the printers is totally incomparable.

"It hasn't happened yet" is a non-sequitur at best, but obviously the goal of such a "contribution" is to chill discussion. The same "contribution" can be made to any conversation about any possible future events. So long as everyone already knows they're talking about the future, it is not helpful in any way.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#909

Post by Theodores »

woopah wrote: post #387
pixelready wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to this is always the one we don’t want to talk about: a robust public safety net. This is the balance to “move fast and break shit” technological disruption. It’s great to have an adaptive overall system, but disruption has a human cost. If there’s a robust public healthcare and UBI type system in place to pad the fall, people will bounce back and adapt when industries break down. If instead we stick our…

Definitely agree with this! Given the pace of technological development, we should basically expect entire groups of people to constantly drop out of the competitive labor market. Don't get me wrong, new jobs will be created as well, but it's also very possible many people will also not be able to reskill into those new roles without some sort of structural support. People have faith that technology will create new m…

I can remember the Thatcher years when redundancies for hundreds of thousands was routine, with the unemployment figures going stratospheric.

The miners, auto-workers, ship workers, BT (phone) workers and other swathes ended up leaving the workplace as a general rule.

To massage the figures, the government were able to expand the education sector and take the 'long term sick' off the books.

For the education sector there are mature person degrees, however, education mostly takes the young off the books, the people that did apprenticeships.

Long term sick can be an easy skive, if you have taken up the bottle, can claim to be depressed and have the doctor in the job centre believe you. The incentive is more money than dole and no need to check in with the job centre on a fortnightly basis.

IMHO AI is the fig leaf for what is going on, with further financialisation of Western economies (rent seeking) and absurd energy costs, due to the Anglo-American 'war for oil against humanity', making most Western economies doomed to never be competitive ever again. Soon the only jobs will be 'multi-drop delivery drivers' and 'care workers for seniors'. Immigrants and young people will fill these roles, not whomever is being laid off 'due to AI'.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#910

Post by victorbjorklund »

rayiner wrote: post #820
Macha wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also fails to distinguish between “society came out of it fine” (generally true) and “individuals came out of it fine” (much more mixed of a track record)

Yes. And individuals largely don’t come out fine. We have this notion of “retraining” but that’s not real. It’s like how studies show it’s very hard to make friends as an adult. Most people whose jobs were shipped overseas in deindustrialization never recovers.

It’s harder to go from 30 years as an assembly worker to a career as a developer than go from developer to say product manager or whatever roles will survive.
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