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What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

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Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#891

Post by miyoji »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #887
miyoji wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commutes are uncompensated labor, so you're advocating for a pay decrease for both yourself and your coworkers. Pay me for my commute and I'll gladly work from wherever you like, just recognize that I would get more done if you weren't paying me to travel to and from work. If you don't pay me for the time I spend commuting, you aren't interested in paying the total cost of employing me and you can kindly go fuck off.

Commutes can also be forced meditation, exercise, and exposure to sunlight and fresh air. If you don't naturally prioritize those things, the impact of missing them will sneak up on you.

Meditation is impossible when navigating the stress of traffic. Driving isn't exercise. Sunlight filtered through car windows doesn't provide vitamin D. Fresh air doesn't exist on a highway filled with brake dust and car exhaust.

Walking to work would be nice and would provide those benefits, but the vast majority of workers don't have that luxury.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#892

Post by logicchains »

bushbaba wrote: post #859
estearum wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised no one has made the extremely obvious observation that it took literal centuries for printing technology to eliminate the trade of printers, which could not have possibly have employed more than 0.01% of people at its peak. Compared to the potential obsolescence of 40% to 60% of the US workforce over the course of 10 - 20 years? You can argue about whether the obsolescence is real or not, but if it is , the…

I doubt unemployment can even raise to 40% before the government and billionaire class is overthrown. The French Revolution was not an isolated event

What are the unemployed going to do? South Africa has over 30% unemployment rate, nothing changes, the unemployed sometimes rob/murder farmers, and the employed live in compounds with armed guards.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#893

Post by braiamp »

strken wrote: post #499
ang_cire wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that WFO-preferenced people don't exist, it's that it aligns with the narratives of the extroverted management (who approve their own PTO) that it's better, and people who aren't extroverts dread being forced back. No one who prefers WFH is actually against people who prefer offices being allowed to go there, they're opposed to people publicly claiming they prefer that- unqualified- because they see…

I'm not an extrovert, I'm more or less on the line between the two extremes, and I prefer WFO or hybrid. Teams should really be choosing their model of work themselves, and anyone who doesn't like it should shuffle off to a different team within the company. Top down RTO is nuts.

If by teams you mean the manager of the team, then no. If by teams you mean each individual can evaluate their role and say "I do not need to come to the office at all", then yes.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#894

Post by fragmede »

estearum wrote: post #797
Animats wrote: post #224

Addressing the question in the title, "What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers", look at what happened to printers. That was a good skilled trade for centuries. Then it just went away. Phototypesetting took the high volume end. Desktop publishing took the low end. Computer-controlled presses took press operators. And then the newspaper business died. I've heard homeless former printers…

Surprised no one has made the extremely obvious observation that it took literal centuries for printing technology to eliminate the trade of printers, which could not have possibly have employed more than 0.01% of people at its peak. Compared to the potential obsolescence of 40% to 60% of the US workforce over the course of 10 - 20 years? You can argue about whether the obsolescence is real or not, but if it is , the…

It's 1.9 million out of roughly 130 million jobs in the US, putting it at about 1 to 1.5 percent. Not 0.01%

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#895

Post by logicchains »

rayiner wrote: post #828
Macha wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also fails to distinguish between “society came out of it fine” (generally true) and “individuals came out of it fine” (much more mixed of a track record)

Yes. And individuals largely don’t come out fine. We have this notion of “retraining” but that’s not real. It’s like how studies show it’s very hard to make friends as an adult. Most people whose jobs were shipped overseas in deindustrialization never recovers.

University-educated "Knowledge workers" should be much more capable of learning new things than the average factory production line worker.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#896

Post by dec0dedab0de »

THX1137 wrote: post #293
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #163

This dropped off the front page in the time I read it, I assume because of the controversial gate that favors upvotes to comments (which I am making worse by replying to others). It is a shame, because this really resonated with me. I've been working in tech for over 20 years now in various roles, and this is the least I have cared about it. I used to want to get better, and was constantly excited about learning new…

> forcing me to go out every day and talk to human beings face to face, even just little things like making sure I was showered and dressed every day This part is strange to me. I've worked from home for about 10 years and I've never once had an issue with twice-daily showering, meeting people face-to-face, going out for coffee, going outdoors, going to the gym, etc. The fact I can just go sit in a park, on a hiking…

I am very jealous of you.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#897

Post by logicchains »

a2ff6eeb0 wrote: post #857
jdm2212 wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're ok with 1963 living standards, you can in fact have the grandfather's same lifestyle today at a very reasonable cost.

Where can I get a house, 3 apartments, a car, and money for raising 5 children at a very reasonable cost?

Any US remote tech job will support that if you live in the countryside of some flyover state.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#898

Post by hackable_sand »

elmer2 wrote: post #279
pixelready wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to this is always the one we don’t want to talk about: a robust public safety net. This is the balance to “move fast and break shit” technological disruption. It’s great to have an adaptive overall system, but disruption has a human cost. If there’s a robust public healthcare and UBI type system in place to pad the fall, people will bounce back and adapt when industries break down. If instead we stick our…

"If there’s a robust public healthcare and UBI type system in place to pad the fall, people will bounce back and adapt when industries break down." This would be great, in theory. The reality is that people would live on it and never work, have kids, and the same thing would happen with a new generation. As it expands, you run out of tax payers and the system collapses. A 'robust' healthcare system that the governmen…

I think I understand now.

You see "work" as a transactional unit.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#899

Post by estearum »

thegrim33 wrote: post #882
estearum wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised no one has made the extremely obvious observation that it took literal centuries for printing technology to eliminate the trade of printers, which could not have possibly have employed more than 0.01% of people at its peak. Compared to the potential obsolescence of 40% to 60% of the US workforce over the course of 10 - 20 years? You can argue about whether the obsolescence is real or not, but if it is , the…

The difference is that one of those things actually happened, and the other one is your hypothetical extremist/exaggerated/worst possible case of what might happen this time.

the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero reason to think about events that haven't happened yet. you imbecile. you fucking moron"

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#900

Post by dec0dedab0de »

DeluluDon wrote: post #214
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #163

This dropped off the front page in the time I read it, I assume because of the controversial gate that favors upvotes to comments (which I am making worse by replying to others). It is a shame, because this really resonated with me. I've been working in tech for over 20 years now in various roles, and this is the least I have cared about it. I used to want to get better, and was constantly excited about learning new…

I used to daydream about homelessness until I did it for 6 years. You're surrounded by threats and your limbic system is in overdrive, deindividuation kicks in and takes a year of being rehoused before you're back to being the same person. Those daydreams generally stop after taking a hike or twenty over the weekends.

This is more than a fair response, and I apologize for using the term, because I really daydream about going on an extended backpacking trip with money in the bank, or living in a van and traveling around. Which is significantly different than the normal definition of homelessness.
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