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As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

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Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#91

Post by vintagedave »

There are some amazing graphics here. These are images users would see very rarely: usually only on the initial installation. (A Sparkle app update would usually run for the rest of the app's lifetime.) The amount of care and polish put into something the user would see only once really shows the change in attitude around apps and UI on the Mac today.

macOS is on the surface the same. But seeing this causes a feeling of a deep gulf. How can we or Apple regain it? That special sense of value and care in the OS and its app developers?

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#92

Post by frollogaston »

self_awareness wrote: post #88
frollogaston wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a directory tree you can just browse in the filesystem, it's a few database files. Idk much about Windows, but at first glance I like how you can browse the Windows registry all in one place without digging through other files.

But it has directories and files inside, right? It's only the program that is used to browse is different. It's like you don't use explorer but regedit. It's the only difference. On macOS it's not like you can always type what's inside the plist files with a text editor, sometimes you need to use 'plutil' anyway (if a plist is binary). So to browse Application Support you still often need thirdparty software anyway.…

Sorry to hear they're throttling you... ~/Library/Preferences is the usual location for plists. Application Support usually has other stuff, but can have plists too. Plists can be anywhere I guess, but the `defaults` CLI only looks in a few places unless you specify a path manually.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#93

Post by Sharlin »

frollogaston wrote: post #66
the_other wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One advantage to leaving the configs around is that the next time you install the app, yiu get it set up just the way you had it before. Also, AFAIK, this mirrors how command line utils would work.

Why would you remove an app if you want it to stay set up? iPhone has the "deleting an app will remove its data" thing for this reason.

Ironically, removing many iPhone apps does not delete its data (as far as the user is concerned) because the data is actually in the cloud somewhere.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#94

Post by pavlov »

I think the most confusing concept in this process for new users is the shortcut inside the disk image because it breaks the isolation metaphor.

So, you download a file, and it's something called an "image" which opens in Finder like you'd inserted an external thumb drive. Fine. You open the image, and inside is... Your own Applications folder? Wait, how can the file I downloaded contain all of my apps?

This kind of indirection is natural to developers and other advanced users: the file you got from the internet doesn't really know about your Applications, it's a link to a generic system location that gets resolved by Finder. But for less advanced users it's oddly circular: this virtual disk that came from the internet has my data in it. It's something that never happens with an actual thumb drive.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#95

Post by ranger_danger »

frollogaston wrote: post #75
FacelessJim wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Applications folder itself is the equivalent. You can select an app and just press delete.

That doesn't delete all Application Support, Preferences, and Caches dirs associated with it.

and in many cases, Windows uninstallers don't do the equivalent either and leave stuff dangling about because there's no standard.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#96

Post by frollogaston »

Sharlin wrote: post #93
frollogaston wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you remove an app if you want it to stay set up? iPhone has the "deleting an app will remove its data" thing for this reason.

Ironically, removing many iPhone apps does not delete its data (as far as the user is concerned) because the data is actually in the cloud somewhere.

It would be nice to be able to delete Robin Hood if you go negative

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#97

Post by jeroenhd »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #51

Counterpoint: as a Mac user it is surreal to click Next Next Next to install a program on Windows. Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled. There is no standard way to install stuff, so neither MacOS nor Windows deviates from something. For all the bickering about it here in the comments, no one proposed an “ideal” solution to install a program on Mac.

> Same for uninstalling. Move to Trash and poof, unistalled.

That removes most of the program files, but there is no chance for the program to run any cleanup process in the mean time. Library Support, .cache, and all other kinds of remnants remain and have no way of getting cleaned up without manual user intervention. It's like hunting down broken uninstaller files in Windows 98 all over again.

The places that need cleaning up after uninstalling a program:

    ~/Library/Application Support/
    ~/Library/Preferences/
    ~/Library/Caches/
    ~/Library/LaunchAgents/
Or possibly:

    /Library/Application Support/
    /Library/LaunchDaemons/
    /Library/LaunchAgents/
And possibly others that use UNIX-style .config/.cache rather than the macOS defaults.

I do like the "folder as an executable" approach macOS has, but the way the ecosystem goes about program management isn't great. Storing caches and data inside of the app directory for applications installed to a user folder (not the global Applications folder, which would require administrative permissions) would go a long way. Entries in all the other folders could just be symlinks that don't take up any space after you trash a program.

As for installers, macOS comes with its own native install wizard format, akin to Windows' MSI installers. This seems to be the default way of installing programs that need things like drivers to function correctly.

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#98

Post by frollogaston »

ranger_danger wrote: post #95
frollogaston wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't delete all Application Support, Preferences, and Caches dirs associated with it.

and in many cases, Windows uninstallers don't do the equivalent either and leave stuff dangling about because there's no standard.

Lack of standard dirs doesn't really matter in this case because the same dev writes the installer and uninstaller. But I do get annoyed that Windows programs put stuff in random places when I want to look into them, like it's program files, program files (x86), documents, roaming... where tf is %appdata% even

Re: As a Windows user, it's a surreal way to install a program

#100

Post by jeroenhd »

bni wrote: post #77

This is one of my favorite things with the Mac. I feel it is very intuitive me moving the app to Applications, then just move it to trash if it sucks and it is completely gone. setup.exe .pkg installers make me feel dirty because I hav enough control over how it will fuck up my system or not.

The app icon approach only give the illusion of control. That may be worth something too, but whether you run a .pkg or a program, the app developer can do whatever they want with the permissions you grant it.

There is an advantage to being able to move a program to any locations and run it from there, and while the same can easily be done on Windows (just make one big .exe!), it's not expected for users to just move install directories around.

That said, programs break the same way: configuration pointing at wrong directories, permissions going wacky, you name it. It just seems to go wrong less often on macOS because of developer expectations.

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