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Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

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Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#191

Post by Xirdus »

lmm wrote: post #172
Xirdus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to point out this is not a royal "we". It's a regular "we". Royal "we" is when you say "we" but mean a singular person, yourself. Here, the author does actually mean multiple people beyond themselves - like you pointed out, they claim to speak for all software engineers.

No, that is exactly GP's complaint. Their whole point is that OP has written things like "we throw everything at a model and hope it gives us what we imagined, without ever having to understand how any of it actually works" when the honest statement would be "I throw everything at a model and hope it gives me what I imagined, without ever having to understand how any of it actually works".

Yes I understand the complaint. It's just that "royal we" means something else.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#192

Post by ButlerianJihad »

Xirdus wrote: post #17
xtajv wrote: post #12

I do not appreciate when authors use the royal "we" to speak for all software engineers when admitting to low quality-control standards. I suspect that it is an attempt to broach an uncomfortable topic through vulnerable self-disclosure, but we need to be serious about admitting when there is a problem somewhere. "Bugs" are not any more cute or fuzzy or entertaining or harmless than the engine "gremlins" that haunted…

I just want to point out this is not a royal "we". It's a regular "we". Royal "we" is when you say "we" but mean a singular person, yourself. Here, the author does actually mean multiple people beyond themselves - like you pointed out, they claim to speak for all software engineers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosism

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#193

Post by flaunf221 »

inglor wrote: post #163
cogman10 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm crazy, but I truly can't taste much of a difference between "good" coffee and "bad" coffee. I can certainly tell the difference between a good steak and a bad one.

That likely means that you've only had "bad" coffee. You're one of today's lucky 10,000 - go treat yourself to a decent cup of coffee it tastes completely different. The difference between a good steak and a bad steak is actually a good comparison.

Sometimes it's a matter of not having taste for it. If you give me multiple bottles of alcohol drinks, I might be able to distinguish them, but I have no clue at all which ones are supposed to be good. To me it's all just alcohol. Same with coffee - but not the same for steak.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#194

Post by pton_xd »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #95
pton_xd wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of recipes like brining a turkey in Dr Pepper... sure it may taste fine, but I'd rather not eat food prepared in plastic bags with processed oil.

Then don't go to a good restaurant. Sous vide is extremely common, and oils of various types are used liberally.

Yeah, that's (one of the reasons) why eating out frequently is unhealthy.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#195

Post by Animats »

MostlyStable wrote: post #30

I take the point, but I think the author picked a poor analogy. Cooking even an excellent steak is actually not that hard. In fact, I'd argue that it's among the easiest things to master/make at a top level quality at home. Does it require some modicum of attention and understanding? Sure. But starting with a high quality cut, owning a meat-thermometer, and knowing about reverse searing is about all it takes to relia…

> I take the point, but I think the author picked a poor analogy.

He may have missed the point.

AI-generated code does not seem to have parsimony, for one. Generating code is cheap, so there's no drive to condense it. LLMs are not yet good at formulating abstractions to make code smaller, leading to code bloat. It's the same phenomenon that appears when humans modify code they only partially understand by adding special cases to general code.

There are complaints about "elegance", but it's more useful to talk about parsimony. Code bloat is measurable. Elegance is hard to assess.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#196

Post by dasil003 »

The best framing I've seen so far—and boy have a lot of people tried to frame the capabilities of AI recently—is that AI shines for people who use it to extend their thinking, and fails for those who use it to replace their thinking.

The latest frontier model developments have chipped away at that latter category. But ultimately the ceiling for that is mediocrity. Yes, if you imagine the most average common thing that has been done a million times, AI can absolutely give a bespoke version of it that matches your words of choice. For the moment it's still an impressive parlor trick to a lot of people, but the novelty wears off fast, and then you realize there's very little value in that. Doesn't mean everyone has to learn to code to use AI effectively, but it does mean they need to be curious and engaged or they'll just become part of the increasingly irrelevant slop machine.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#197

Post by puchatek »

garbageman wrote: post #155
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corn oil is cheap and available at costco. A sous vide is a fancy french name for a $150 device from target that keeps water at a specific temperature... This "simple process" is much, much simpler than most meals one cooks at home. It's not much harder than microwaving something. You are missing the point. With a small change in the way you do something, the really good thing can be made.

Sous vide are even cheaper now, $30 for a basic one, provided you've got a stock pot or something large enough to set it in.

You need something to vacuum seal the food. Is that included in the $30?

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#198

Post by shen »

recursivegirth wrote: post #88
SoftTalker wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To achieve the best outcomes, I agree. But even a cheap steak can be decent if it's cooked properly. And an expensive prime cut can be ruined by cooking it improperly.

Any steak can be delicious with a butter bath and then hit it with that A1 :).

Why don’t you skip the meat and just make a butter and A1 soup :)

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#199

Post by derriz »

froh42 wrote: post #49
MostlyStable wrote: post #30

I take the point, but I think the author picked a poor analogy. Cooking even an excellent steak is actually not that hard. In fact, I'd argue that it's among the easiest things to master/make at a top level quality at home. Does it require some modicum of attention and understanding? Sure. But starting with a high quality cut, owning a meat-thermometer, and knowing about reverse searing is about all it takes to relia…

I was just curious asked chatgpt: How can I make a really great steak myself? What to look out for, what to do. Give me detailed instructions. I got a really good answer (including - cut, temperature and reverse searing), so I probably won't even need understanding. (Oh - and yes, I can cook - the answer mirrors what I already know). Yes, it was a very, very poor analogy, because cooking a steak is a well known and w…

Funny I tried the same and it advised a using searing/smoking hot pan. Which is poor advice unless you enjoy the bitter acrid taste of burnt meat. The Maillard reaction doesn’t require those sorts of temperatures (under 180C is hot enough) - especially as the surface of the steak will dry from the oven phase of the reverse sear. “You were right to pull me up on that…”

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#200

Post by Freedom2 »

jmaw wrote: post #107
MostlyStable wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are protected in two ways: The first, and by far most important is that unlike ground meat, your bacterial concerns are almost entirely on the surface. Unless something very very very wrong has occurred in the processing and transport chain, bacteria will not have penetrated into the meat. And if it's gotten bad enough that they have, you will almost certainly be able to see and smell it. And the surface is cooke…

This is why rare steak is ok, but rare ground beef hamburgers are not. Although less cooked through burgers are sometimes served in restaurants that grind their beef fresh right before cooking

It also doesn't help that the quality of ground beef in the US is much poorer than other countries, so those who may regularly eat rare ground beef internationally would experience a level of shock if eating it in the US.
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