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No Data Centers in My Backyard

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Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#161

Post by throwaway2037 »

Planktonne wrote: post #138
broken-kebab wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>problem with conspiracy theories is not that they're based on a lack of trust, but that they're not rational. Rationality isn't some sort of absolute parameter, it's determined wrt available information. And with information coming from outside it's certainly an issue of trust. FWIW such unconditional claim as "DC will harm your community" is a shiny example of this, as you don't even care to talk about a particular…

> Rationality isn't some sort of absolute parameter, it's determined wrt available information The available information is very clear that cellphone towers are not mind control and that the current leaders of the tech world do not have the best interests of people in mind. We don't need to talk about a particular DC, because that's beside the point: people have very legitimate reasons to oppose them on principle.

    > the current leaders of the tech world do not have the best interests of people in mind.
Did they ever?

Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#162

Post by tokioyoyo »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #158
bob001 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that's not sustainable. It just brings in outside workers, distorts the economy in bad way for locals through increased costs, distorts their daily life in a bad way and then it all goes away leaving a void in its wake. Like the olympics.

This is a weird comment to me. Think about green energy, specifically solar panels and wind farms. Almost by definition, the jobs created are only during installation. (Ok, there is a little bit of long-term maintenance, but a tiny fraction.) Would you say the same about those projects? It is unavoidable that the modern world needs data centers (how many is open for debate). It is a fact of life that most of the jobs…

> It is unavoidable that the modern world needs data centers (how many is open for debate)

You know, I’m currently having drinks with a friend who has no connection to the tech world, and asked him about this line explicitly curious of what he thinks about it. He said “I have no idea why such things would be unavoidable”. And that is the sentiment of the general populace towards AI/DCs and etc.

Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#163

Post by bryan_w »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #152
broken-kebab wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We can't trust them" is the foundation of practically every conspiracy theory, though, from times immemorial. I remember people protesting against cell towers, and it was exactly what their arguments were built around: "We don't believe this thing won't fry our brains". It was the same before with electrical lines, and I guess steam power had its share too. Not telling a concerned citizen is obliged to trust everyon…

The difference in attitude between cell phone conspiracy theories and data center conspiracy theories is almost entirely driven by the media reporting on them. The media (correctly) identifies people worried about cell phone radiation affecting their health as crackpots. But because the Anglosphere media establishment itself is threatened by the tech industry at large, it not only fails to report on anti-datacenter s…

They allow the "infrasound" people go unchecked even though they are basically the same as the tin foil hatters.

Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#164

Post by user43928 »

ungreased0675 wrote: post #149
user43928 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it big tech's responsibility to somehow 'contribute beneficially'? Data center construction is not a welfare project. As long as there is no corruption involved, I do not see what is wrong with big tech choosing a project site where the cost is minimal. If there are many poor rural cities which compete for data center deals, this seems to me like an efficient free market. If public opinion swings, will this not in…

A free market is not one particular company getting a better deal on taxes than all the other businesses in the area. That’s the opposite actually.

There is more than one company constructing data centers, and I am not sure what you are saying here.

It is not a free market if cities offer tax breaks to data center developers to attract large projects?

Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#165

Post by broken-kebab »

Planktonne wrote: post #138
broken-kebab wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>problem with conspiracy theories is not that they're based on a lack of trust, but that they're not rational. Rationality isn't some sort of absolute parameter, it's determined wrt available information. And with information coming from outside it's certainly an issue of trust. FWIW such unconditional claim as "DC will harm your community" is a shiny example of this, as you don't even care to talk about a particular…

> Rationality isn't some sort of absolute parameter, it's determined wrt available information The available information is very clear that cellphone towers are not mind control and that the current leaders of the tech world do not have the best interests of people in mind. We don't need to talk about a particular DC, because that's beside the point: people have very legitimate reasons to oppose them on principle.

And "available information" translates to "the sources I trust provide information that ..."

I guess you don't get the comparison cause cell towers aren't controversial anymore since they are a usual part of landscape. They used to be, however, and lots of arguments are literally the same. Including, of course "on principle".

Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#166

Post by genericdrone436 »

ianm218 wrote: post #125
bob001 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

City taxes don't fix a broken economic flywheel. State taxes go to others and also don't fix it. You need a functional economy with jobs, income, spending and all that jazz. A small amount of taxes with no second order benefits is worth relatively little.

Sure but progress over perfection right? More tax revenue puts you in a better spot to attack those problems than not having it. Even just doing what Northern Virginia does and lowering people’s property taxes gives homeowners more disposable income/ lowers prices for renters which is a start.

You realize that Loudoun County, VA has the highest median family income of any county in the US, right? Its not an economically struggling region that needs permanent jobs.

Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#167

Post by inigyou »

ajkjk wrote: post #134
inigyou wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should switch to whatever is cheapest right now. If it gets more expensive, you should switch to whatever is cheapest right then. That's the market price signal that drives the good parts of capitalism.

that's one way of doing the calculation, which I do not subscribe to. The economic theory that markets develop according to the aggregate effects of rational actors does not invert into a moral imperative to you should do what money tells you. In fact it has no bearing on what one "should" do whatsoever. As it happens they are competing on service quality and goodwill more than price (all will drop the price quite a…

Verizon will only lower prices if it's losing customers to Google Fiber. Otherwise it won't.

Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#168

Post by ajkjk »

inigyou wrote: post #167
ajkjk wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's one way of doing the calculation, which I do not subscribe to. The economic theory that markets develop according to the aggregate effects of rational actors does not invert into a moral imperative to you should do what money tells you. In fact it has no bearing on what one "should" do whatsoever. As it happens they are competing on service quality and goodwill more than price (all will drop the price quite a…

Verizon will only lower prices if it's losing customers to Google Fiber. Otherwise it won't.

There are 4-5 competing ISPs in my area.

And no, they'll lower prices to prevent losing customers preemptively as well. But only if you ask them to

Re: No Data Centers in My Backyard

#169

Post by keeda »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #156
keeda wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not reflexive; it's evidenced. Regardless of what big tech promises, or potential mitigations, everyone knows what tech companies do now. It's not a generalised small-town lack of trust in big city folks, it's a direct response to decades of extractive behaviour by the same companies and people. I feel like this is projection. If you look at the list of top brands ranked by a variety of dimensions (trust, inno…

You raise an interesting point. If we look at Mag7: Alphabet/Google, Amazon, Apple, Meta/Facebook, Microsoft, NVIDIA, Tesla: All of they are probably building data centers at a furious pace. (Honestly, I'm not sure if NVIDIA needs as many as the other six.) However, we do not see great opposition to their own data centers. Why? My guess: They are incredibly careful about how they plan data center expansion to reduce…

Hmm, I'm not quite sure people are being discriminating about which data centers they oppose. I recall Microsoft and Amazon making a lot of concessions to get some of their sites approved.

I do agree though that despite what reasons citizens may be citing in public -- power bills, water, pollution, noise -- the real pushback is against the "AI will take our jobs" fear. To be fair, it's not just an abstract fear for a number of people already.

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