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Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

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Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#81
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"many people are meant to be slaves is also a fact" - you definitely need to spend a while researching what comprises a fact.

'meant' was a wrong choice of word which i stated above. you come across as a child by being snarky - you definitely need to spend some time learning how to behave like an adult.

You literally posted that some people are effectively born slaves, that's beneath contempt and if you said it to my face I would certainly have been far, far less kind. Also you definitely need to spend a while researching what comprises being an adult.

Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#82

FWIW, I got a lot more about virtue ethics from reading Plato's works, the Stoics, and Cicero. Aristotle is somewhat dry and tedious to read. Go for him if you're into formal logic and related technical systems. But if you're truly interested in virtue ethics and have some reading discipline, try Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius. On Marcus Aurelius: he's often recommended mindlessly (especially in tech circles)…

It doesn't help that nowadays Aurelius is being held up as some beacon of masculinity nowadays. I mean there are much worse role models but so many folks have been reductionist about his views and it can be problematic. There is some good ideas but they have become idolized. I found the views of the Neoplatonists to be fascinating even if one doesn't subscribe to those views. Generally, read broadly and from multiple…

> It doesn't help that nowadays Aurelius is being held up as some beacon of masculinity nowadays.

Yeah, it's people like Tim Ferris, Ryan Holiday and others who write titles such as "how to think like a Roman emperor" (a terrible title if you know anything about Aurelius or Stoicism in some depth) and other tech bros are to blame. They drummed up excessive hype for Aurelius, he's good marketing material.

Neoplatonists: I tried reading Plotinus, but it didn't resonate with me, afraid. But it was a weak attempt.

Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#83
post #34

FWIW, I got a lot more about virtue ethics from reading Plato's works, the Stoics, and Cicero. Aristotle is somewhat dry and tedious to read. Go for him if you're into formal logic and related technical systems. But if you're truly interested in virtue ethics and have some reading discipline, try Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius. On Marcus Aurelius: he's often recommended mindlessly (especially in tech circles)…

Plato is delightfully weird and engaging and way more fun to read than Aristotle, agreed.

Yeah, I think Plato's dialogues are unparalleled. I love the rigour, drama, and how they don't end with a clear conclusion ("aporia"), forcing you to find your own.

Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#84
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s weird and messed up because Aristotle’s audience isn’t Christian or even Abrahamic the slightest. He’s right about rejecting abstract definitions that aren’t grounded in the elements of a situation however.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Those two sentences seem disconnected. One very common error people make is to believe that ethics - at least epistemically and for the most part - is sectarian. This view seems to stem from an ultimately nihilistic presupposition that morality is a fiction supplied by the fiction of religion. But that is not the natural law view and thus a view alien to both Aristotle a…

>One very common error people make is to believe that ethics - at least epistemically and for the most part - is sectarian. This view seems to stem from an ultimately nihilistic presupposition that morality is a fiction supplied by the fiction of religion. But that is not the natural law view and thus a view alien to both Aristotle and to Christianity.

I didn’t make that claim in any implied way, I asserted, correctly, that Aristotle is not an Abrahamic thinker.

> The natural law view is that human beings have a nature, which is most centrally to be a rational animal with the freedom to choose between alternatives apprehended by the intellect. Thus, Man has moral responsibility, because he plays a part in choosing what he does. Accordingly, because human nature defines what is good or bad for human beings (that which actualizes human potential in accord with reason vs. that which frustrates or opposes reason and the actualization of potential in accord with it), we bear responsibility for how we exercise our powers. Aristotle wasn't completely, but the core principles in the Metaphysics or his ethical works or in epistemology are - in my view - spot on.

The Nichomachean Ethics doesn’t discuss ethics within any context of absolute free will even, it is a very qualified doing. Aristotle explicitly points out that the actions of slaves are entirely disqualified from being considered ethical. Most Christian theologies would vehemently disagree precisely because having the supra-knowledge of the Mystery imparted upon one necessarily brings one's being into the dimension of revealed universality. That's not what Aristotle is talking about.

> What Christianity does or claims to do is supplement what is knowable by unaided reason with revealed knowledge - the object of faith - which, of course, does have ethical import, but it does not negate or supplant what is knowable by unaided reason.

All three of the Abrahamic theologies were infected by Neoplatonism, which . The Europeans revived their Neoplatonism through the Muslims even. The Middle Ages Christian theology of the "chain of being" is a riff on Neoplatonist "ladder of being".

Aristotle was describing in Metaphysics a cosmology concerned with unpacking the notion of motion as the actualization of potentiality, hence, "First Mover", which is not at all an Abrahamic idea.

> FWIW, Aquinas drew heavily from Aristotle and had such enormous respect for Aristotle, he referred to him as simply "the Philosopher".

This doesn’t interact with my point since it requires us first to ask how he read Aristotle, whom was not an Abrahamic thinker. An aside, but the Muslims called Aristotle “The Philosopher” (Ibn Rashud, Ibn Sina), and that tradition was received through the Muslims by their European readers.

Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Greek philosophers were more wise, humble, and didn’t think they’re deities.

It's a category mistake. People try to naturalize Jesus as a "great teacher", but the one thing you cannot do is frame Jesus as another wise man and good teacher! The man claimed to be God. Anyone who makes a claim like is either insane, a liar, or, in fact, God. "Greater teacher, full stop" is simply not an option. Which is to say that the founding of the Church by Jesus is not rooted in some wise teachings, but in…

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Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#86
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

being born into slavery is a random fact -- life happens and they had no control over it really. many people are meant to be slaves is also a fact -- it is not like everyone is gifted cerebrally, or even blessed to be in an environment where, by the time they are adults, have been shown a good formula for life; so consequently a section of the society is destined to be just slaves, it just needs the presence of a man…

> Aristotle, being an endless questioning guy he was I dunno--as far as I can tell Aristotle never asked the slaves who supported his philosophical lifestyle what they thought about it.

> Aristotle never asked the slaves who supported his philosophical lifestyle what they thought about it.

My guess is he likely did with the slaves he freed or made provisions for in his will (and preserved by Diogenes Laërtius)

Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to distinguish between "many people are born into slavery" and "many people are meant to be slaves by their inborn nature". The former is true, the latter is not, even in the example you've given. Also, he was referring to people performing labour, not people adhering to spiritual belief or ideological systems. I see what you mean, but I don't think this means what he believed was true. I see it as categorica…

being born into slavery is a random fact -- life happens and they had no control over it really. many people are meant to be slaves is also a fact -- it is not like everyone is gifted cerebrally, or even blessed to be in an environment where, by the time they are adults, have been shown a good formula for life; so consequently a section of the society is destined to be just slaves, it just needs the presence of a man…

"Meant" is the problem here - if you think "meant" by your mentioned "manipulator", then yes - the elites are evidently holding that worldview for millennia. But "meant" - as in "natural order of things" / "higher purpose" is obviously not a fact, and should be strongly denounced.

Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#89
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plato is delightfully weird and engaging and way more fun to read than Aristotle, agreed.

Yeah, I think Plato's dialogues are unparalleled. I love the rigour, drama, and how they don't end with a clear conclusion ("aporia"), forcing you to find your own.

Well Aristotle's attempt to find a demonstrative science (or what we would refer to as science today) also led him to an aporia between universal categories and individual substance. It's just that Aristotle's aporia cannot be understood in Platonic terms.

Re: Aristotle quotes on virtue, knowledge, and happiness

#90
post #73

> 11. “Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” That's a poor way of framing his beliefs about this. The correct framing is more like “Virtue and being a Good Human Being is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Happiness should stem from being a good human being; happiness itself is not the origin of virtue or purpose. If p…

It's unfortunate that the Greek word eudamonia , which is the one Aristotle used, gets translated into English as "happiness", which is open to so many misunderstandings, particularly in our current culture. There isn't really a single English word that means "being a good human being". "Virtue" or "virtuousness" might once have served, but I think its connotations have shifted in a way that makes it no longer suitab…

I’ve wondered at times if this is partially due to cultural changes. We’re less interested in prosocial traits and how we fit into social hierarchies/personal duties and more interested in personal happiness or gratification.

I’m not sure. It appears this way from what I read, but it’s hard to know having not been alive 2000 years ago.

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