Earlier quoted context omitted.
The pretext is that his travel to another state was assumed to be to buy weed. They appear to be relying on his existing warrant and criminal record to justify having used Flock data to not just locate him, but manufacture probable cause. Unless they have direct evidence (photo from Flock of him ripping bong hits in his car at a light) prior to the stop to attach probable cause to, it's a pre-crime judgment. IANAL (i…
> The pretext is that his travel to another state was assumed to be to buy weed. [...] > Unless they have direct evidence [...] it's a pre-crime judgment. But how does it being pre-crime judgment etc. imply it is a pretext too? Just look up the definition: - A pretext is "a false reason given to hide the real motivation behind an action." [1] - A pretextual stop is "pull(ing) people over for minor rule violations [..…
Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
201–210 of 214 posts
Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#202I'm so confused, how is this creating a pretext ? A pretext is a false reason. Like if they searched for one reason but they really did it for a different one. But that's not what I'm reading here? It seems they suspected something, they used that exact reason to perform a search, and that's exactly what they found. Terrible reason, okay, but why are they being accused of lying ? If a thief threatens you saying you l…
The pretext is that his travel to another state was assumed to be to buy weed. They appear to be relying on his existing warrant and criminal record to justify having used Flock data to not just locate him, but manufacture probable cause. Unless they have direct evidence (photo from Flock of him ripping bong hits in his car at a light) prior to the stop to attach probable cause to, it's a pre-crime judgment. IANAL (i…
It seems that the police was investigating the suspect for a separate crime "bail jumping".
There was a warrant, and the suspect was detained and searched with the powers granted by a judge via a warrant.
Again I ask, what's the 4th amendment violation here? That a cop assumed something? A cop is free to assume whatever they want, as long as that's not what they rely on to make a detention or search.
>relying on an existing warrant and criminal record to justify [locating someone], and manufacture probable cause.
A judge issued for the detention of an individual, the police did so. Did the cops rely on the warrant to manufacture a probable cause? What are you arguing here, that the detention was legitimate, but the search was not and the evidence of the crime should be ignored via poisonous fruit? The detention was legitimate, when someone is detained, they are searched, that seems legitimate to me.
I think the confusion arises from a lack of distinguishing between probatory and investigative evidence. A conviction requires hard probatory evidence ( beyond a reasonable doubt or preponderance depending on the charges), a search requires 'probable cause' (pre-search readily apparent, time sensitive, suspicion of a crime).
The purpose of a warrant is to bridge the gap between investigative and probatory evidence. Cops and detectives can obtain investigative evidence (that guides the investigation but is not sufficient to obtain a conviction) by their own means with standard limitations, certain actions like searches are protected by requiring approval from a judge, that approval is called a search warrant. The justification for requesting a warrant can be entirely investigative, it does not require probatory evidence as that would be against the very nature of the system being described, the purpose is to obtain probatory evidence without vulnerating individual privacy rights by adding a check and balance from a different power.
So it wouldn't make sense to argue that the hypothesis was weak, or that flock cameras were used, whatever investigative evidence or hypothesis they had is irrelevant, what matters is only that they had a warrant, whether they got it by submitting the inter-state drug crossing as evidence, or submitting something else as evidence,
Here's where I had to google some nuances. In the case there already existed an arrest warrant, a search of the person would be legitimate, but not a search of the car. So if there's a probable cuase being mentioned, it relates only to the searching of the car, not to stopping the car (as that would have been covered by the arrest warrant).
The probable cause mentioned in filing seems to be based on odour, whether that's enough, I don't know, it appears that it is.
I can see though how this might be nuanced, and how an attorney might argue that odour of an individual officer is insufficient. Maybe some defenders can get him out of the case, but does that mean that the system is working incorrectly? Where? What are we arguing that an officer committed an unlawful search of the car after a lawful arrest? Certainly a routine incident (unless grossly unlawful), wouldn't even merit disciplinary action. And to my understanding completely unrelated to
The complaint even mentions that the officer found a weed grinder in the top of the car, which could have easily been used as probable cause, as it was readily apparent, but it was only found during the search.
So yeah it doesn't look like there was a 4th amendment violation, and even less that it would be related to the flock cameras, there was an arrest warrant, and as far as the search it was not related to.
I'd like to add that every time one of these cases against Flock comes up, it never amounts to anything, I get the argument that this can "start with unsympathetic cases", but I take it there's no cases of dumb teenagers without priors? Like this is the worst abuse that can be found relating to flock cameras? Flock is 'advertising' with cases of lost children being recovered, those have to be weighted, at least I will. I won't analyze every case of a criminal being subjected to a potentially unlawful search, that was actually 100% on point and actually found the evidence.
In the end, the pre-crime is actually done against flock in the (left) public opinion, it's being judged based on slippery slope arguments on potential dystopian futures, instead of what is actually happening.
Bringing up cases like this that aren't even borderline is probably doing more damage if anything, there were cases of officers stalking their ex-gf with the cameras, and it seems that the audit trail doesn't track specific warrants, it just asks for a general string that's usually filled with 'warrant', those are true weak points, this is just engagement bait to get blue dress/white dress debates where the left defends the rights of criminals and false positives(which might be legitimate), while the right sees criminals being prosecuted for their crimes. If that's what it comes down to, I don't see the dress blue, what can I tell ya.
Edit: i don't get why the bail jumping charge was dropped though, like how can you lack evidence for that? If the conviction was never fact based but law based, then that may be grounds for arguing the arrest warrant was illegitimate and thus argue poisonous tree?
Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#203This is the big problem with mass surveillance as a whole. With enough time, they'll find some pretext to bring you in, even if the original crime they want you for is weak. This will ruin lives, even if they're eventually let go. Jobs lost, evicted from homes, cars towed, pets surrendered and put down. Lives will be completely derailed, police and judges will not be held accountable. The wrongful arrestees will stil…
Someone that is innocent is going to get killed soon because flock flagged them incorrectly. I recall reading the auto journalist that got flagged for a stolen car while test driving a car. We have seen how often pull over/arrests can derail when a stupid cop that is aggressive pulls out their weapon first, fires fast and then investigates last. An innocent person that reacts wrongly is eventually going to make the n…
https://www.techspot.com/news/113320-one-california-town-fou...
and the saying OP is looking for is "You can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride". A police saying since the early 70s.
Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
Only if the jury believes in nullification, which isn't common. The jury is instructed to follow the law. The selection process asks "even if you think they were right, if it's against the law and they were guilty would you issue a guilty verdict?" and people answer "yes" consistently.
No one who has answered "no" made it thru the selection process, so there might be some survivor bias at play here.
Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not the 'incident' that is the problem, because Flock is not helping cops be 'dirty cops' or anything. That's exactly what Flock is doing. It's just the latest variation on "power corrupts".
Then your argument is we should have no police 'because power corrupts' I don't think this is reasonable or principled. The evidence here is that Flock can be used maliciously, I don't think anyone doubts that, the question is it a tool that is inherently bad in it's normal functioning, and I don't think so. Like ... 'pepper spray' can be used maliciously by cops, since it's 'less apparently extreme' they can get awa…
That’s an uncharitable strawman.
We have checks against police abuse in place. Probably not enough in the US, but they exist. There’s no meaningful oversight in the US of Flock camera usage, though. And frankly, meaningful oversight will kill Flock’s business model - which it should. Nothing Flock is doing should be allowed in a democracy, in its current form.
Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#206Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#207This is the big problem with mass surveillance as a whole. With enough time, they'll find some pretext to bring you in, even if the original crime they want you for is weak. This will ruin lives, even if they're eventually let go. Jobs lost, evicted from homes, cars towed, pets surrendered and put down. Lives will be completely derailed, police and judges will not be held accountable. The wrongful arrestees will stil…
More like a hammer to your head.
Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#208This is the big problem with mass surveillance as a whole. With enough time, they'll find some pretext to bring you in, even if the original crime they want you for is weak. This will ruin lives, even if they're eventually let go. Jobs lost, evicted from homes, cars towed, pets surrendered and put down. Lives will be completely derailed, police and judges will not be held accountable. The wrongful arrestees will stil…
I am playing devil's advocate here, but mass surveillance can also save you. Let's say your just broke up with your girlfriend, shortly after, her house get burgled and a bunch of jewelry is stolen, including some you gave her when you were together. A surveillance camera catches the burglar, a drug addict with a criminal record, he gets caught, tried and sentenced to 2 years in prison. The kind of case that won't ge…
Then you get hella hard time because technically it's an evidence and arguing against evidence is always way harder, even if the argument is "if you squint and imagine that this guy wore a wig and painted his face, here's an expert opinion that height and figure difference could be an illusion from camera position". Court almost always defaults to evidence and experts.
Or it wasn't a burglary in your girlfriend house, but face/plate-matching algorithms screwed up.
It's hard to choose between "police give hard time to victim and victim relatives" and "police randomly decides who fit the bill and get this person sacked"
Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#209I'm so confused, how is this creating a pretext ? A pretext is a false reason. Like if they searched for one reason but they really did it for a different one. But that's not what I'm reading here? It seems they suspected something, they used that exact reason to perform a search, and that's exactly what they found. Terrible reason, okay, but why are they being accused of lying ? If a thief threatens you saying you l…
Re: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines for a Pretextual Weed Search
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
Someone that is innocent is going to get killed soon because flock flagged them incorrectly. I recall reading the auto journalist that got flagged for a stolen car while test driving a car. We have seen how often pull over/arrests can derail when a stupid cop that is aggressive pulls out their weapon first, fires fast and then investigates last. An innocent person that reacts wrongly is eventually going to make the n…
Flock doesn't kill people. Cops do.
Cops need to be on a leash because the profession attracts the untrained pitbulls of humanity.
These people should be digging ditches half the time, yet they're the ones with qualified immunity and guns.