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Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

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Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highly dependent on weather and the complexity of the approach. Clear skies and VFR? I would agree. Heavy weather and an instrument approach or confounding factors? Not accurate imho. > At midnight on May 14, eight minutes after Clark and Kawsara took off from Roswell, they told Albuquerque Center that they’d lost their GPS. Unable to navigate on their own, they asked that the controller give them a heading—a magneti…

GPS is not, and never will be, reliable enough for IFR on its own. Relying on a tower in instrument conditions because GPS failed is unacceptable, because every other GPS user is in the same boat. If you’re flying IFR, you should have a working set of instruments and be using them. Why didn’t these pilots have their VORs tuned in for positioning?

> GPS is not, and never will be, reliable enough for IFR on its own.

WAAS GPS (~7.6M accuracy) is reliable enough for IFR on its own that many approaches have removed legacy RF ILS equipment for instrument approaches (RNAV LPV with synthetic glidescope from GNSS). I would agree this does not apply to the vast majority of general aviation (although certified receivers supporting this are well within the reach of GA at ~$6k), but facts and specifics are important, so enumerating that GPS and these trimmings make it designed to replace traditional IFR equipment under certain circumstances. WAAS is not a paid service, the additional precision is free if your receiver and autopilot supports it.

Further reading:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/at...

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2025/october/pi... ("Today most IFR pilots use GPS as a primary source of navigation, whether they’re flying a departure, airway, or arrival defined by VORs; or segments of approaches based on navaids or that require DME or ADF.") [My note: This is straight from the advocacy group for general aviation in the US, AOPA.]

https://www.flyingmag.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-...

https://boltflight.com/loc-vs-ils-vs-gps-approach-understand...

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System

> "The Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) is an air navigation aid developed by the Federal Aviation Administration to augment the Global Positioning System (GPS), with the goal of improving its accuracy, integrity, and availability. Essentially, WAAS is intended to enable aircraft to rely on GPS for all phases of flight, including approaches with vertical guidance to any airport within its coverage area. It may be further enhanced with the local-area augmentation system (LAAS) also known by the preferred ICAO term ground-based augmentation system (GBAS) in critical areas."

> In 2007, WAAS vertical guidance was projected to be available nearly all the time (greater than 99%), and its coverage encompasses the full continental U.S., most of Alaska, northern Mexico, and southern Canada. At that time, the accuracy of WAAS would meet or exceed the requirements for Category 1 ILS approaches, namely, three-dimensional position information down to 200 feet (60 m) above touchdown zone elevation.

Category II or III ILS GPS approaches are supported when the subject airport has a local reference station reporting corrections ("LAAS"). With enough precision, the aircraft can land itself with GPS and local corrections ("Autoland"). A King Air running Garmin's SafeReturn recently performed this autonomously with GPS alone (to the best of my knowledge).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local-area_augmentation_system

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/non_federal/g...

Autoland saves King Air, everyone reported safe - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46346214 - December 2025 (185 comments)

Event ATC recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Nl3LOZNjc

Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ruFmgTpqA

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#152
Well, only solution really is to not depend on other countries here. Mexico is large enough to use their own satellites and if they want to do it not alone they can possibly on-board Brazil, Canada and so forth. It is tragic that the USA is so ruthless here that civilians suffer, but at the end of the day the question is how much dependent one wants to be on an increasingly selfish and aggressive USA. Canada understood the problem domain even though it is hard to change (most Canadians live close to the US border, just look at the population density, that deadlocks trade already to a huge inter-dependency); Mexiko has not yet thought this through.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#154
post #15

When I used to fly in Florida in the 2005-2015ish timeframe, NOTAMs for GPS interference (it didn't say that exactly but that's what it meant) were an everyday occurrence along my path, it became boilerplate. I experienced it a few times. One moment the GPS thinks you're plodding along next to Ocala, next moment it thinks I've teleported a thousand miles away, and then it'd just quit. But that's what we train for. Th…

> No big deal.

Sure, if it's obvious it's happening, like GPS being completely knocked-out.

If it's a GPS spoofing nudge by a few dozen metres per minute, then it's not so obvious. Enough to make a OWA drone miss its target, while also not being easily noticed by pilots.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#155
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess GPS jamming was not routine for them. Had they been aware of any NOTAM regarding GPS interference, they'd be prepared, and, like you said, would have VOR setup prior to leaving the ground.

Checking NOTAMs is important.

Russia seldom publishes NOTAMs for offensive GPS interference

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#156

Airline captain here... A visual approach to an airport in mountainous terrain on a moonless night is very risky. In our operation, departing to an airport with missing weather reports would not be permitted, so in a Part 121 scheduled service this flight may not have been able to dispatch legally. Airliners have DME/DME triangulation which allows them to achieve area navigation (RNAV) without GPS. The interference w…

It was hammered into me that moonless nights could be as or MORE dangerous to me than flying into weather - at least when you fly into a cloud you KNOW you're fucked.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#157
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say this can be generalized: threads on HN are goofy about all the kinds of things HN readers and hackers are unfamiliar with but think they have the common sense to reason about. This week I witnessed a similarly illogical argument between someone who thought they could argue about AI in movies and someone who actually works in the movie industry and has years of experience. The hacker was lecturing the movie pe…

It's a numbers game. There might be one person who's in the right place at the right time with the right understanding to second the nuanced professional take. There's a hundred idiots ready to agree with the simple BS that fits their priors all the time. And of course, thanks to the vote based crap the peddlers of the latter will have their monkey brain trained to phrase their commentary to be appealing to the avail…

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Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#158
post #88
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear they're laying out that this is pilot error, unlike the article's intent to blame parties other than the pilot. The poster is trying to correct that, from an obvious place of knowledge and experience most of us do not have, and isn't being rude about it either. It's important to understand why things happen in order to prevent them, and to counter the narrative of the opinionated article. And if we…

More than one thing can be true. Flying into the side of a mountain is an error by the pilot (obviously). It can also be true that if GPS wasn't being jammed it wouldn't have happened.

To bring it full circle, it can also be true that it wouldn't have happened to a more competent pilot under the same circumstances. Per the parent commenter's point, it doesn't hurt anything to bring that perspective.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#159
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was training 20yr ago we practiced stalls, spin recovery, simulated random engine-out scenarios.. do they not do that anymore? I was pretty confident barring some catastrophic mechanical failure I could probably get it on the ground or into the water (or trees) in one piece. The big question remains though: what now? If you're knocked unconscious (likely--lap belt, big flat instrument panel at face height) the…

I'm not a pilot but as I understand it, stall/spin recovery practice is not mandatory anymore for a PPL and not all pilots do it, because it requires an aircraft designed for acrobatics and in practice a number of pilots ended up getting killed trying it. So now they learn it by the book or maybe playing with a flight simulator but not in an actual aircraft.

Stall recovery is absolutely required to be instructed and demonstrated in the private pilot checkride. These are demonstrated to a full aerodynamic stall, not merely to stall warning.

Spin recovery is no longer required to be instructed (and was not previously required to be demonstrated during the practical test either [as many aircraft are placarded as "intentional spins prohibited"]).

CFR for the instruction requirements: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-D...

Airman Certification (Practical Test) Standards: https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/private_air...

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#160
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess GPS jamming was not routine for them. Had they been aware of any NOTAM regarding GPS interference, they'd be prepared, and, like you said, would have VOR setup prior to leaving the ground.

If you are a pilot and can't handle GPS dropping out, or the failure of any other single navigation aid, you should not be flying.

Well in this case there were multiple failures... Should they have been identified earlier? Yes.
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