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Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

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Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#81
Missing from the article is that, once the pilots reported to ATC that GPS was inoperable, ATC was going to have them circle to the right and guide them along the ILS approach, which would've avoided the worst of the mountains. ATC also asked the military to stop GPS jamming, which they did for a brief while... and the pilots probably noticed GPS start working again... except...

Instead, the pilots saw the airport visually and requested a visual approach. ATC cleared them, and told the military they could resume GPS jamming, meaning any terrain awareness warning system the pilots might have had or been relying on would no longer work. The visual approach involved a left turn and descending directly over the mountains.

blancolirio's video about this (second one, after the prelim investigation report): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcyup4xVQuM

He focuses on the fact that both instrument approaches were impossible under the conditions; gps jamming made RNAV impossible, and an inoperable weather broadcasting system at the destination made ILS impossible. The alternative, visual approach in mountainous terrain on a moonless night, is clearly unwise for inexperienced pilots.

One thing he doesn't mention, though, is that ATC could have waited until the plane was on the ground to tell the military they could resume GPS jamming, knowing this was a medevac flight lacking the usual planning and level of caution of typical pilots.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#82
post #47
post #17

GPS is not essential to air navigation. It’s nice to have, and there are some approaches that legally require it to be operational in order to fly them (IFR procedures) but aviation has other systems in place to guide aircraft under conditions where visual flight navigation is impossible. In this case, IMHO, the pilots had become complacent and lax in their navigational rigor because of the fact that GPS makes a lot…

This was the partial cause of Air France 447. Pilots were so used to "the plane won't make a mistake" that they were not aware/not trained properly about things that are nothing to do with the FMS like frozen pitot tubes and also that the autopilot has a number of "modes" which mean you need to go back to basics like altitude, attitude and air speed.

They didn't know their air speed (because of the pitot tubes being frozen). I think the report says that there was a path to safety if they had kept focused but it wasn't as easy as just flying the plane via 'the basics'.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#83

I guess there’s no way to constrain these jamming signals to some reasonable perimeter? 400 miles of overspill seems like sloppy engineering.

The satellite GPS signals are incredibly weak.

Individual GPS signals typically arrive at the antenna below the receiver’s thermal noise floor and the system relies on processing gain in the receiver to generate a fix.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#84
Airline captain here... A visual approach to an airport in mountainous terrain on a moonless night is very risky.

In our operation, departing to an airport with missing weather reports would not be permitted, so in a Part 121 scheduled service this flight may not have been able to dispatch legally.

Airliners have DME/DME triangulation which allows them to achieve area navigation (RNAV) without GPS. The interference would have precluded a GPS approach but may have left the GPWS ("Terrain! Terrain!") alerts unaffected.

In this case the ILS was not available, but only because the local altimeter setting was not available. In this case I could accept a visual approach, but use the ILS to provide lateral and vertical guidance towards the runway.

There are many things I have learned about flying from years at the airlines that I would have had to learn the hard way at a Part 135 or Part 91 operation. One of those things would have been when to say "no".

Take the airplane to a mountainous airport with missing weather reports at night with NOTAM'd GPS interference? No.

Do a visual approach on a moonless night with no GPS for terrain awareness? No. Fly the ILS even if it's NOTAM'd out.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#85
post #54
post #17

GPS is not essential to air navigation. It’s nice to have, and there are some approaches that legally require it to be operational in order to fly them (IFR procedures) but aviation has other systems in place to guide aircraft under conditions where visual flight navigation is impossible. In this case, IMHO, the pilots had become complacent and lax in their navigational rigor because of the fact that GPS makes a lot…

Don't worry, our government is doing their level best to make GPS the only option for air navigation. After all, we all know that technology NEVER fails, and the sooner we can turn off all those big bad old ground radars and navigation aids, the sooner we can sell all that real estate and use the money for things that the American public desperately needs, like more corporate bailouts and bathroom security cameras.

They’re going to eliminate windows?

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#86
post #15

When I used to fly in Florida in the 2005-2015ish timeframe, NOTAMs for GPS interference (it didn't say that exactly but that's what it meant) were an everyday occurrence along my path, it became boilerplate. I experienced it a few times. One moment the GPS thinks you're plodding along next to Ocala, next moment it thinks I've teleported a thousand miles away, and then it'd just quit. But that's what we train for. Th…

[flagged]

Your post is overly critical, dismissive and rude.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN threads on aviation are always a bit goofy to anyone who's actually flown a plane, yeah.

Very much goofy, especially when people here try to extrapolate ground stop / AOG / IROPS. True armchair warrior without any competence.

I'd say this can be generalized: threads on HN are goofy about all the kinds of things HN readers and hackers are unfamiliar with but think they have the common sense to reason about.

This week I witnessed a similarly illogical argument between someone who thought they could argue about AI in movies and someone who actually works in the movie industry and has years of experience. The hacker was lecturing the movie person about why they were wrong about the future of the movie industry, with zero experience to back it up other than "I dabble in AI and watched some movies".

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#88
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's pretty clear they're laying out that this is pilot error, unlike the article's intent to blame parties other than the pilot. The poster is trying to correct that, from an obvious place of knowledge and experience most of us do not have, and isn't being rude about it either. It's important to understand why things happen in order to prevent them, and to counter the narrative of the opinionated article. And if we…

More than one thing can be true. Flying into the side of a mountain is an error by the pilot (obviously). It can also be true that if GPS wasn't being jammed it wouldn't have happened.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#89
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last paragraph confuses a few different things. The aircraft was completely legal to fly under IFR during the en route phase. There is no requirement for a local altimeter setting for that; center can provide an area altimeter setting (and does so on every handoff). The lack of a local altimeter setting precluded the use of the instrument approaches (the way you transition from en route phase to landing). Both o…

Yeah, sure, you're right, and good point about non-towered. Are you suggesting however that "The flight crew acknowledged the clearance and responded that they would cancel IFR “in just a couple of minutes.”" meant the crew was informing the tower that they would transition to VFR? That seems... unlikely. I'm reading the paraphrasing here as towards declining to cancel the ILS approach they previously requested becau…

(Per other comments, a visual approach is still an IFR operation; they were still IFR, but flying a visual approach.)

It's very common to cancel IFR in the air, especially for late night operations to non-towered airports. (At an airport with an operating tower, they will close your IFR flight when you land.) At a non-towered airport, you have to either call on the phone or use a radio relay to close your flight plan, which can be a pain, so in benign conditions it's very common to cancel IFR in the air where you have line of sight [meaning good comms] to the ARTCC radio transceiver and avoid the hassle of bad cell phone coverage and/or no radio contact possible on the ground. (There is no radio relay at Ruidoso; the nearest RCAG is at Roswell, 50+ nm away with terrain in between.)

ZAB ARTCC's transmission that "they could cancel IFR in the air above 9,000 ft msl" tells the crew "once you get below 9000 MSL, you probably won't be able to talk to us on the radio".

When the crew said "we'll cancel IFR in a couple minutes", that's also common. It means "we're going to stay IFR and fly the visual until we're a little closer and landing is reasonably assured."

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#90
post #17

GPS is not essential to air navigation. It’s nice to have, and there are some approaches that legally require it to be operational in order to fly them (IFR procedures) but aviation has other systems in place to guide aircraft under conditions where visual flight navigation is impossible. In this case, IMHO, the pilots had become complacent and lax in their navigational rigor because of the fact that GPS makes a lot…

Depends on the weather. A lot of approaches to airports are GPS only these days. If GPS doesn't work and you are not in VFR weather, you can't fly those approaches. In bad weather you'd be diverting to an airport that still has ILS.

Vectoring by the controller to a visual or ILS approach still works but they'd be juggling a lot of planes. And while lots of the bigger/older airports still have ILS, many VORs and DMEs are being retired and many smaller airports don't have ILS at all.

Denied access to GPS in a large area in bad weather would likely result in lots of flight cancellations and contingency plans getting put in motion to get anything still in the air landed safely. But controllers would get very busy and ILS runways very congested.

Here in Europe, there have been a few cases of GPS denied areas especially closer to Russia. Mostly pilots and controllers at e.g. Helsinki airport are able to deal with this.

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