I don't understand Myth 1 (Developers Spend Most of Their Time Writing Code). They quote a study in which developers report to spend 11-14% of their day coding. The rest is stuff like solution design and meetings. The insinuation is that AI can at most automate 14% of your day. The problem with this argument is that once you have code, some (not all) of the precursors to code go away.
Also AI is now drafting design docs, generating PLC work products, entering it all in Jira, characterizing and root causing bugs... It's speeding up the 86% of my job that isn't coding. The article is a bit myopic and frankly contradicts itself.
Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
201–210 of 269 posts
Re: Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
> shifting the work elsewhere for specialized tasks. More replicable, improved, but, it scales infinitely and is autonomous? Can you assert that? I would say yes and it will scale. It will either happen through central LLM just paying for it and scaling it up to everyone on the planet (literaly) OR by the agentic layer every big business is building into their systems. You needed some human to use your tool optimized…
> I would say yes and it will scale So you mean AI will be useful for any general job without lots of training for those jobs? How about new tasks? Tasks it has not been tweaked for. When I deviated from the average, and not really weird things, when programming, the output was way worse than average stuff. And this is an explicit target of AIs nowadays. I think you are missing a lot of details here, honestly. > Exac…
I'm pretty sure we will solve this issue. Either already through World Models or another architecture.
It could also be, that we just need a 10 or 100 Trillion Parameter model to match so many generic ways of solving tasks and keeping the concept in the LLMs 'head' to solve it that it will just emerge with parameter size. Like with fable they said that it can chain together exploits which wouldn't work as standalone exploits.
What if the only real barrier is the depth of understanding of concepts and this is exactly what is getting solved with parameter count?
But look how young this field really is if you start counting it when it became relevant on mass. Its not 'just' an LLM which is changing the world, its machine learning overall. Robotics wouldn't be were it is today if its not for machine learning. Took humans time and energy to take the leap, to start learning what the status quo is and then actually doing more with it.
> the paradigm as we know it is a ceiling unless you massively and continuously feed this system with average tasks
While I do think its doable to achieve AGI in 5-15 years, even if it doesn't happen and it always means that people train an LLM or whatever, if you need 10 experts to teach this to an LLM OR every single senior has to teach this to their juniors every single time, the LLM will always win.
I'm now team lead for 10 years and every single year I teach them the same thing over and over and over again.
the craziest thing about this? If i wouldn't tell them what they are doing wrong, they wouldn't even know it.
Quality is already a very flexible term for a lot of people.
> I can agree that for lots of tasks it does not. But for others it is just not a tool good enough.
Yet.
> If you want to ship a sub-par thing that will go to the rubbish in a couple of months, then yes, you can do that. But that will fail commercially any way.
Now we come to the reality: I have seen so much garbage software its crazy. People using md5 as a password hash in 2024! No clue what coding best practices are, teams without code review, teams without a security expert not even knowing what crazy things they do day in day out.
Just a few month ago a team build an API for my team including a Swagger UI. Half of it didn't work. You pressed a button on the Swagger UI and a 500 returned.
And do'nt underestimate what it means that a lot of business people don't like software people. You know that fruit basket we get? and water and stuff? they don't do it because they like us they do it because thats what you have to do. if a Product Owner starts vibe coding with AI, he will have leadership convinved in no time, then it goes on production and it will run for waaaaaay longer than anyone would have guest.
Besides that there is plenty of software were complexity is less relevant or security is not that big of an issue.
Re: Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That meeting that you spent an hour in to understand the requirements? You don't need that meeting if you're not writing the code. How are you going to prompt the LLM or validate its output if you don't understand the requirements?
In some number of cases, the business partner who would have passed you the requirements will just generate the code themselves.. I’m shocked shin some engineers don’t see a massive disruption coming..
Re: Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
#204and why did this study (performed in China I might add) find that women and “mature age” (which is not defined in the study) have less usage of AI tools?
>>>? We suggest a new barrier: using technology to assist task completion signals a lack of competence to perform the task independently.
So basically the study suggests that older engineers and women are reluctant (and especially women) to use AI tooling because they feel they are being judged more on non-technical competencies.
This study may have a strong cultural influence but I would say that one thing they noted I’ve also seen. 41% of engineers in the study had used AI 12 months after the initial rollout. This aligns with my observations. Some people are struggling figuring out how to adopt in their day to day while others are full in.
Re: Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is such a weird point to make I think it is a great point to make, because if everyone really believed that AIs will do everything without human intervention in a handful of years, as the marketing repeats again and again (AGI, singularity, etc.) and have been saying for years... why then get bothered? Because we DO know LLMs have their hallucinations, limitations, perform tasks not previously seen way worse t…
The AI researchers are not the ones making the marketing, much less believing in it.
Re: Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
#206> We already know developers don’t actually spend most of their time writing code, with studies at Microsoft and elsewhere showing it’s closer to 14 percent. Anyone else finding they're spending more time writing code (or at least driving agents to write code) now? 14% used to feel about right for me - I'd spend the rest of the time researching approaches and libraries, planning things out in issues, or sometimes jus…
I used it to write SQL and make dashboards. Back in the day, I would spend a lot of time doing that, then I changed roles. I dipped my toe in it recently and used AI exclusively. I would send a prompt, see the output, decide if that is what I wanted or not. I kept my brain in "what-if mode" and I let the LLM handle the technical specs.
The cost of prototyping has crashed. So you can A/B/C... various ideas, test them in the real world or by personal preference, to taste, and converge on designs that work for you.
This used to very hard and expensive. Now it's so cheap it makes the idea -> test -> refine loop much tighter and faster.
Re: Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does the code get reviewed? How do you deal with increased amount of code that may need to be looked at?
I review the code that matters - anything security adjacent or that's an API that will be used by other code in the future. I don't review code that either works or doesn't - most HTML and CSS layout code for example. There I test it on desktop and mobile and commit it if it works. Ditto for stuff that's simple. A JSON endpoint that runs a SQL query and returns some JSON? If it works and a glance at the tests looks O…
Re: Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Isn't this falling into the "lines of code" trap TFA mentions? More code written is not a good measure of productivity. It could be garbage, or redundant code, or simply not addressing the real or more pressing needs, it could be building the wrong thing, etc. Like TFA mentions, it's been known for decades LoC is a misleading metric for productivity. It's one of the lessons of software engineering.
I'm planning an article at the moment in defense of lines of code. Saying "lines of code are a bad measurement" is too easy! It's about time someone presented an opposing argument. In my specific case, lines of code for my published open source projects is a metric that I trust, because I have high standards for those. I have plenty of other projects where I'll accept poor quality, unreviewed code (almost all of http…
I don't know about easy. It's a hard earned lesson of software engineering, backed by research (some of it cited in TFA). Also, there's a related lesson: the more LoC to solve a given problem, the more bugs. That's also a finding backed by research.
I'll be reading your article when you write it, but I confess I'm skeptical.
The AI companies have a vested interest in using this metric, since it's easy to measure (the reason LoC were used even before AI) and there's no doubt that LLMs are writing tons of code. This makes me doubly skeptical.
Re: Eight Myths on Software Engineering and GenAI
#209I've found that using LLMs for significant amounts of code generation completely drain the result from any dopamine I would get doing it myself. Have others noticed this as well? This is going so far as to me losing interest in side projects because I have "lost touch" with the code base.
Yep. ADHD very strong in this one, so LLM code generation takes pretty much all joy out of coding. It’s like watching a computers play chess. Yeah, no thanks.