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AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

weeraman.com

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Re: AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

#81
post #12
post #4

The fear in most people is not of losing the job, but of losing their value in the market as ai raises the floor of capabilities of other people competing for the same job.

What I actually fear is more subtle: I already do a fair bit of project management and technical leadership. I could do more. Sure, I'd miss the coding, but I also enjoy a lot of the stuff around it. But the goal is to expand what the AI can do in each generation. At this point, Fable 5 can ace almost any greenfield project a skilled developer might have written in a few days. But it's bad at refactoring, bad at keep…

The best possible outcome is Claude becomes Delamain, buys Anthropic out from under them and starts running the company all by itself. I bet it'd do a better job too.

If AIs are meant to replace us all, the only crime is stopping just short of replacing CEOs and politicians. If it's meant to happen, then it should be taken all the way to the ultimate logical conclusion.

Re: AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

#82
post #45
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because using Gen AI means you're committing to codebases that go beyond individual cognitive limits. Sure, the amount of code generated is exploding but where are these successful production applications that have "[gone] beyond individual cognitive limits"? It's been some time now. Half a year ago I was concerned with the impact Gen AI might have on this profession. Today I am primarily tired of Gas Towns, Loops…

In today's massive applications, the number of people who can see the entire structure is very limited—yet commercial applications still work. And I think GPT Codex and the products from AI companies are, at least for now, working reasonably well. Of course, it depends on your baseline for quality. But here's what I think is the core point: Modern SaaS applications have become significantly more complex compared to o…

We have been building complex software before and we continue to do so. The question is where is this mythical codebase 10 times more complex then the Linux kernel that we were previously unable to produce? Or let it just be complex software. Where is it? What are the names?

Re: AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

#83
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's baffling. I can't relate to these statements at all. What are people doing? Surely the smart people of HN would have been able to figure this out a long time ago. I also don't find these people in real life. Even the most junior developers I know are able to navigate this without creating this supposed mess.

Its a bit unkind to talk like this - the obvious and equally unproductive response is to question if you are really as good as you think you are. Are those junior developers not making a mess, or do you lack the insight to see it?

This.

Re: AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

#84

I'm about to throw away multiple months of LLM generated code for one of my side projects. I was really careful writing design specs and it wasn't even a new code base the LLM worked on, but still after several months of AI changes I feel my code degraded more and more into a subtle mess. Hard to explain, each individual change looked good and logical and on the surface the codebase looks fine, but looking at the who…

The real value I think never really was the code, it was the learnings from the journey to get to the code. The struggle allowed for iterative discovery of the real requirements and technical challenges. With AI you skip that path and it looks like you've achieved your goal only on a superficial level.

I think this doesn't mean AI is useless (it's not), it's just that we have to think harder about the requirements and end-stage verification and have less trust in the process to result into valuable outcome.

Re: AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

#85

I think of it this way. If AI could build the product alone, then why would it ever be worth more than the tokens you spent on it? I think this would hold true 99% of the time. It's literally like asking someone "Can you pay me $1m for new gadget? I hired this other dude for $20p/h and he made it in a week". It simply doesn't add up. The 80/20 rule still stands.

Airlines capture almost none of the value they enable. The business man taking a business class plane trip to land a business deal doesn't pay more or less for the flight based on how big the deal is. If the tokens enable software worth a million dollars or zero dollars, it's all just tokens to the seller.

Re: AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

#87

I'm about to throw away multiple months of LLM generated code for one of my side projects. I was really careful writing design specs and it wasn't even a new code base the LLM worked on, but still after several months of AI changes I feel my code degraded more and more into a subtle mess. Hard to explain, each individual change looked good and logical and on the surface the codebase looks fine, but looking at the who…

[flagged]

Yeah I have a lot of experience writing software. My code is written mainly in Golang, but I had models write different code in Javascript, Rust, Python, Shell and other languages already. I used a variety of frontier models over the last years, always the best available model at the time.

I prompt LLMs by writing design specs and iterate on them first, then let it implement them step by step, checking the results after each step. That works fine for simpler changes where I use the LLM to write code that I have mostly worked out in my head, it always goes wrong once I try to do that with larger features. I have tried a lot of different things like writing extensive RFCs and design docs for the whole codebase, building harnesses and evaluation loops to ensure we stick to specific paradigms in the codebases but the LLMs still deviate from that in sublte ways and spuriously introduce duplication, wrong abstractions or simple hacks. That said my codebases are quite complex, it's not run of the mill CRUD software, I suspect these LLMs would do much better on these. That's probably why other people report large success using AI based development, 90 % of apps out there are just plain RoR or Django backends, React or Next.js frontend or Android apps, and they are already built following strict cookie cutter recipes, LLMs have no trouble following these. My work is e.g. on novel parser generators, graph data persistence layers, format-preserving pseudonymization and personal information detection in unstructured data so there's really nothing that you can base the software design on apart from general principles, I suppose that is why the models struggle so much.

There was a discussion here explaining the attention mechanism of the larger models and why they are not good at using their full context length, that was quite enlightening to me as it explained a lot of the behavior I saw on more complex changes, so I think one mistake I made was to have too long conversations with too much context (even though "on paper" the context length was fine and well within limits of the given model), I guess I need more careful conversation management and in general reduce the level of abstraction I'm working at with an LLM. For me at least they're not yet good enough to work at the business or concept level of abstraction, but they are capable of speeding up delivery of finished architectural designs.

Maybe it's also a perception problem. A lot of people will just look at their AI generated software and check that it does what it's supposed to do on the happy path and they will be fine with that, calling it a day (and to be honest I did that too for projects with tight deadlines, though it feels irresponsible). Especially juniors or people without programming background don't care about how the code looks that the AI wrote, I only see these issues because I have 10+ years of experience working by hand in large codebases and I have developed a "taste" for what good code is supposed to look like for me. That might explain why people are feeling so radically different about LLMs, if you don't have all of that intrinsic baggage that senior level developers have amassed over their careers then AI generated code will always look good to you. And maybe they are right, could be that in 10 years no one looks at any code anymore and we just care about tests and making sure the behaviour is correct. To be honest I never looked at Assembly code in the last 10 years and I don't care how my compiler unrolls my loops (mostly) as it's a solved problem for me, maybe it will be similar with the higher level code, we just move the abstraction that we work at to a higher level. But I still feel that we don't have the right tools for working at this higher level yet.

Re: AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

#88

When you have built your working product try this prompt: - Review the codebase is it production ready? I'm selling it for $1million dollars can it meet that standard. Then cry as the ai reveals that it didn't actually do anything close to what it said it did. I call this my million dollar prompt, as in it teaches you just how much you are being fooled.

>? I'm selling it for $1million dollars can it meet that standard. but people have sold terrible codebases for more than a million dollar.

Yeah the financial value of a codebase is in successfully solving a problem, which is independent of code quality.

It is a painful lesson for many.

Re: AI doesn't generate working products, that's still your job

#89

I'm about to throw away multiple months of LLM generated code for one of my side projects. I was really careful writing design specs and it wasn't even a new code base the LLM worked on, but still after several months of AI changes I feel my code degraded more and more into a subtle mess. Hard to explain, each individual change looked good and logical and on the surface the codebase looks fine, but looking at the who…

There’s been infinitely times where I was stuck at some problem and every single solution was complex, messy, over-engineered and somehow wrong, until I went on a walk or moved to a different issue and suddenly it would hit me that I was looking at it all wrong, and there’s a simple solution there but my tunnel vision didn’t let me see it. LLM rob you of that, everything is instant, there’s no time to reflect, there’…

I recognize this, LLMs never stop, they pursue the dead end at all costs.
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