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U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

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Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#181
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You made a general, pedestrian claim about spending I didn't do anything, that wasn't me. > You're not making a serious claim that we're overspending. This is the thread about debt to GDP ratio hitting 123%. I don't claim anything, but if this isn't overspending then I think we agree to disagree. > Not really. Most US debt is owed to Americans, and in the circumstances in which we're worried about some other countr…

> I didn't do anything, that wasn't me. Ok you're defending it. > I don't claim anything, but if this isn't overspending then I think we agree to disagree. Ok if it's over-spending then let's cut the programs that align with my ideology instead of cutting military spending. > You want to solve that with weapons?? That'll only make everyone drop the dollar, as simple as that. Not worried at all - those dollars become…

> Ok if it's over-spending then let's cut the programs that align with my ideology instead of cutting military spending.

Yes, I think the question of whether or not the US is living above its means is settled. Where you cut is a political decision. I certainly think the US can reduce its military spending, with an emphasis on reduce.

> The strength of the dollar is because of the actual physical reality and capabilities of the United States.

I don't think this is true at all. It's value is a result of being the reserve currency of the world and as a result a lot of things being denominated in USD. The financial system will lose so much if the dollar devalues significantly that that's a bad outcome to almost everyone, not just the US.

I think the actual capabilities of the US have 0 influence there. Certainly military capabilities. That kind of stuff is true for drug cartels, not global financial stability. You cannot force anyone to buy dollars by force.

> You're directionally right but also wrong w.r.t America.

I think you're wrong here. But not in the sense you might expect.

You present your reading as a fact. I think how you read the current situation with Iran is a question of how you interpret the situation.

For example, you say

> Iran's economy literally doesn't function due to our blockade (which means we also control the Strait of Hormuz).

The US has never controlled the strait. The biggest win for Iran is that it has asserted being able to block it. The US can block any ships going to and coming from Iran's ports. It cannot and has never been able to guarantee safe passage through the strait. That last fact is Iran's biggest win of the conflict as it has now shown that even when the US goes full scale war, it can still shut off the strait for all intents and purposes.

The other miscalculation is that while you might have air superiority, it should be clear by now that the US can't win from the air alone. And Iran might have known/gambled that the US wasn't willing to commit to a ground offensive. As bad as it sounds to be bombed whenever your enemy wants, from a strategic point of view I think this makes sense. Horrible for the population but the regime doesn't care.

> The worst outcome is some MAGA coal rollers have to pay more for gas.

Uh no. The US lost quite a bit of respect I think for this intervention. We need to see what a final cease fire might look like but the whole world is essentially asking what the hell this whole endeavour was for. The whole world is paying higher gas prices and in a lot of other countries especially south east Asia there is a much bigger dependency on Middle East oil. Those people aren't happy about this at all. It might not even be higher prices but outright shortages. And wait for food prices to shoot up because of more expensive fertilizer for example.

The problem with a lot of this is that the American view doesn't extend past its borders. You see spending on bombs and some higher gas prices. Other countries see shortages and higher food prices. Just remember how pissed off America was when egg prices went up because of avian flu. Now imagine a foreign power being responsible. The decision makers can't even explain the actual goal, and when they try it seems to be shifting all the time.

> But this also reinforces the need for a higher military budget and the need to spend more to acquire more arms and capabilities.

In the end I think it comes down to one simple assumption. You seem to be convinced that with enough military spending the US can force a country to do what it wants. I think that that's not possible at all (see Russia and the Iran conflict right now) let alone at a cost that any country can bear. The US clearly is already struggling to pay for it all.

> By the way, the military budget isn't actually that high as a percentage of GDP. You're welcome to do that comparison yourself.

Sure, but I never said that. The problem is that you don't raise the money to pay for your spending. It's a significant chunk of the federal budget and that will need to be balanced at some point. Every US household knows this, they have to do it every month.

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#182
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Specifically in the case of economic warfare, Iran is losing badly. The worst outcome is some MAGA coal rollers have to pay more for gas. Iran's economy literally doesn't function due to our blockade (which means we also control the Strait of Hormuz). I'd rather pay extra at the pump (well I drive an EV but w/e) then have like 80% of my economy held hostage. No, the worst outcome is Iran continues to mess up everyo…

> * really cheap, making it possible to saturate target's defence Which is precisely the reason to attack now before this problem becomes much worse and then Iran adds in nuclear weapons too. > However, right now Iran seems to have the strategic and weapons (no really*) advantages vs. the USA that Ukraine has vs. Russia, so it is a risk worth taking seriously. I just disagree. Even in your scenario for example the US…

> Which is precisely the reason to attack now before this problem becomes much worse and then Iran adds in nuclear weapons too.

Perhaps. However, there are many alternatives to "attack" besides "do nothing".

> Even in your scenario for example the US GDP falling 10%, well, we can stomach that. If we can't, we should pack up the military because any war is going to threaten GDP and we won't be able to defend NATO against a Russian attack (nor can Europe because GDP will fall) nor can we defend Taiwan.

You can't defend Taiwan, full stop. If and when China decides to attack, they're smart enough to make sure to use the right weapons for the conflict, and that any allies Taiwan has won't get involved.

Right now, the US is making this even easier for China by depleting the only weapons it does have, though this is only of minor relevance as what the US has is not even a good match for a China conflict in the first place. The best Taiwan can hope for in the near-term is a mix of promising it will be pyrrhic, and possibly surprising everyone with some anti-drone solution that has yet to be demonstrated.

> I think you and many others are confusing "I don't like this war" with "we can't tolerate temporary disruptions and price shocks".

> But in any case Iran's GDP falls 90%, that's much more devastating.

With this, you are making the same mistake as with Vietnam, "We thought we were winning because we killed more of them than they killed of us", or whatever the quote was.

Iran's a dictatorship, they DGAF. You're not a dictatorship (not yet, and long may it remain so), your government answers to the people, and the people repeatedly demonstrate they can't tolerate temporary (though in this case I mean "a year or two") disruptions and price shocks.

This issue in your nation has been made worse by the piss-poor comms from the White House, that seems to simultaneously want everyone to think they totally wiped out all possible threat from Iran in the previous strikes, and yet also simultaneously Iran remains a threat requiring further and more expensive military expenses and action.

> Iran were to attempt to execute such an attack, it would create a global problem necessitating a global response, troops on the ground, the actual Iranian regime dead - don't forget they do have lives they want to live and we can ensure they and their families don't have that privilege. Iran just the other day struck a ship in the Suez Canal - these global chokepoints can't live hostage to an Iranian regime just because whoops they decided they don't like that the US sold Patriot missiles to Ukraine which they're using to defend against Iran's buddy Russia so you better stop or we'll attack the Strait and the Red Sea and the Suez Canal. We simply cannot and will not live under threat.

The global response so far has been "America caused this mess. Sure almost all of us think Iran's leadership is awful, but this is America's mess, America can damn well clean up after itself."

Quite a lot of us are even hoping you'll get stuck there, wasting your weapons and personnel, just so you don't make another threat against the sovereignties of technically-still-allies.

The allies in the region have the more immediate threat from Iran. But half of Europe already noped out in no small part because of Greenland.

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#183
post #146
post #3

Upsetting how we are reaching these lows while the administration is accusing everyone else of wasting taxpayer money except for themselves. At least under previous administrations you would get something for your money, like science funding and healthcare for the needy, not just bombing runs and posturing.

As much as people may dislike Regan, his goal for reducing taxes on the wealthy was based upon the laffer curve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve The hypothesis is that lowering taxes rates will actually increase government revenues. The Trump cuts don't feel like they're laffer optimal. Instead they feel like political capture by the wealthy class. A cumulative of left of laffer optimal tax strategies over…

>As much as people may dislike Regan, his goal for reducing taxes on the wealthy was based upon the laffer curve.

That changes everything, doesn't matter that it didn't work at all.

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not denying it's more expensive. I'm disagreeing with your premise that we could reach the cost effectiveness of European countries. Europe and America aren't interchangeable. You can't achieve the same results in each just by turning the policy knobs to the same settings.

I reject your argument. It is easier to see when comparing the cost of goods. It is not a fact of life that goods in the US cost 2x the price of equivalent goods in the UK. If I compare the prices of a PS5 in the US to a PS5 in the UK (excluding the 20% Tax), they are basically the same price [1]. If I buy a pair of 501 Levi's jeans in the UK [2] and a pair of 501 Levi's jeans from the US [3] I pay basically the same…

> I reject your argument. It is easier to see when comparing the cost of goods. It is not a fact of life that goods in the US cost 2x the price of equivalent goods in the UK.

Services aren't goods manufactured in a single place. Delivery of healthcare services in the U.S. versus U.K. reflect myriad factors that are rooted in differences between Americans and British people. Americans wouldn't tolerate the trade-offs in the British healthcare system--a system I think is very good, btw--for the same reason they wouldn't tolerate living in little British houses or driving little British cars.

> Please explain why it is a fact of life that a drug in the US costs considerably more than the same drug from the same manufacturer just purchased in Europe.

It's a policy determination to subsidize drug companies to make sure we get access to the latest drugs.

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have me confused with someone else. This was me 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47986799 > If American foreign policy was rational, we wouldn’t have been involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and now Iran. Not to mention Somalia, Kosovo, and Libya, and countless minor skirmishes. We’ve been throwing kids into the meat grinder for 75 years, and lighting dollars on fire, for no good reason. There’s n…

Fair enough, I retract my earlier comment. That's not an inconsistent position to hold. My apologies.

Thank you.

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#186
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we just ignore inflation and other issues, there's still a hard limit because governments don't literally just print money, but sells bonds at market rates. As confidence in the economic stability declines the interest rates the government is required to offer on those bonds trends upward. So right now even 10 year treasuries are selling with just under 5% interest. As a result we're now paying $1.4 trillion…

>governments don't literally just print money, but sells bonds at market rates no, sometimes they literally do exactly that. google for quantitative easing. that's what it is and it's a tool that can always be used by monetarily sovereign countries to bring bond interest rates down by as much as they want. insolvency thus isnt possible.

> insolvency thus isnt possible.

You might want to look up Zimbabwe or Germany (after WW1). When your money becomes worth less than the paper it's printed on...

So, it's possible, and has happened before.

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#187
post #186
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>governments don't literally just print money, but sells bonds at market rates no, sometimes they literally do exactly that. google for quantitative easing. that's what it is and it's a tool that can always be used by monetarily sovereign countries to bring bond interest rates down by as much as they want. insolvency thus isnt possible.

> insolvency thus isnt possible. You might want to look up Zimbabwe or Germany (after WW1). When your money becomes worth less than the paper it's printed on... So, it's possible, and has happened before.

As long exporter nations want to swap their real assets with digits (US dollars), US is solvent.

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#188
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> insolvency thus isnt possible. You might want to look up Zimbabwe or Germany (after WW1). When your money becomes worth less than the paper it's printed on... So, it's possible, and has happened before.

As long exporter nations want to swap their real assets with digits (US dollars), US is solvent.

Yes, and that's a function of knowing what you can buy for that dollar.

As soon as you start devaluing your currency to get out of debt, not so much. I believe Argentina is a fine example of that

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#189

Why is this a meaningful figure? It's not debt that matters its how much it costs to finance it. It's Finance 101 that if you manage to borrow below inflation rate, and you have the luck that what you paid for appreciates, then your debt will disappear over time. On the contrary, trivial amounts of money with usury can ruin you financially.

> It's Finance 101 that if you manage to borrow below inflation rate

And when was the last time that happened? Pretty much only during inflation spikes. The vast majority of time, inflation is around 2% or maybe 3 or 4 recently, 10 year Treasury yields is well above 4.5%.

So maybe you have 40T USD lying around, and you're willing to lend it all to uncle Sam for inflation -.1%. if that's not the case then it's finance 101, and wishful thinking

Re: U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 123%

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reject your argument. It is easier to see when comparing the cost of goods. It is not a fact of life that goods in the US cost 2x the price of equivalent goods in the UK. If I compare the prices of a PS5 in the US to a PS5 in the UK (excluding the 20% Tax), they are basically the same price [1]. If I buy a pair of 501 Levi's jeans in the UK [2] and a pair of 501 Levi's jeans from the US [3] I pay basically the same…

> I reject your argument. It is easier to see when comparing the cost of goods. It is not a fact of life that goods in the US cost 2x the price of equivalent goods in the UK. Services aren't goods manufactured in a single place. Delivery of healthcare services in the U.S. versus U.K. reflect myriad factors that are rooted in differences between Americans and British people. Americans wouldn't tolerate the trade-offs…

> Americans wouldn't tolerate the trade-offs in the British healthcare system

I do not believe this is true. Keep in mind that the UK has universal healthcare (NHS) but also has a private healthcare system.

The private healthcare system can be used to prioritize speed, comfort, elective procedures, ...

Around 12% of the UK population has private medical insurance [1].

> It's a policy determination to subsidize drug companies to make sure we get access to the latest drugs.

There are cases in which a drug is under extreme demand outstripping manufacturing capacity. In these cases, paying more can provide access to a limited resource.

However, to my eyes, this appears to be an unusual occurrence rather than the typical state of drug production worldwide. I don't see evidence that the amount the US pays for drugs results in dramatically higher access.

I believe the opposite is true. If a drug is available in a US pharmacy but it is unaffordable, does one have access to it? I would say no.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jan/30/almost-one-i...

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