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Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

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Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#61
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weak doesn't mean "evil" here. If the effect is strong, but a lot of kids end up regretting it later, then this would be bad.

In this case regretting it generally means stopping taking blockers and letting puberty progress as it would without the intervention. Puberty blockers give time to assess if further intervention is needed later (such as hormone replacement therapy)

That's not true. There was recently a woman who ended up with a masculinized body with apparently no room to revert the change.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire purpose of puberty blockers is to enable deferring the decision until you are an adult and can make a well-informed decision. The make an irrevocable decision right now options are to go through natural puberty or immediately go on HRT. We also let children decide on inflicting life-shattering bodily harm to themselves all the time. The classic examples are things like contact sports (children playing tack…

No, that is not the purpose of "puberty blockers." Those drugs were developed for four different reasons: 1. To delay extremely early-onset puberty in children as young as seven or eight who had a pituitary disorder. 2. To treat advanced prostate cancer. 3. To treat endometriosis and uterine fibroids in women. 4. As part of a treatment for breast cancers, part of fertility protocols, or treatments for endocrine disor…

> No, that is not the purpose of "puberty blockers."

The context was gender dysphoria treatment. Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize.[1]

> This notion of using these drugs to disrupt healthy and physiologically normal puberty, was not even a little part of their purpose.

Gender dysphoric puberty has unhealthy effects.

> gender dysphoria often resolves itself as the process of puberty and natural maturation unfolds

I never saw this claim supported by studies which did not include children who did not meet gender dysphoria criteria. And those studies found persistence predictors when they looked. Meeting gender dysphoria criteria for example.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is not the purpose of "puberty blockers." Those drugs were developed for four different reasons: 1. To delay extremely early-onset puberty in children as young as seven or eight who had a pituitary disorder. 2. To treat advanced prostate cancer. 3. To treat endometriosis and uterine fibroids in women. 4. As part of a treatment for breast cancers, part of fertility protocols, or treatments for endocrine disor…

> No, that is not the purpose of "puberty blockers." The context was gender dysphoria treatment. Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize.[1] > This notion of using these drugs to disrupt healthy and physiologically normal puberty, was not even a little part of their purpose. Gender dysphoric puberty has unhealthy effects. > gender dysp…

The context was medical intervention for a minor. You trying to narrow it to be only that of treating gender dysphoria has the convenient effect of having to only consider whether the suffering is related to the dysphoria, and not the broader consequences such as whether a minor is able to understand those consequences.

The suffering in the moment is "I want" and the damage the treatment has in satisfying the want creates "I can't ever..."

Discussing that requires the broader context, so your redefinition doesn't work.

Puberty doesn't have unhealthy effects, the dysphoria does. There is also evidence that treatment doesn't resolve the worst "effects" namely depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation or tendencies. Those often return after the initial euphoria of getting what's desired wears off. It's why there's a fair percentage of kids that later regret having done that to themselves, and it's why the suicide rate for those who receive transition treatment doesn't actually go down, and in some cohorts the rate actually went up.

If we really cared about people suffering from dysphoria we'd look at these facts and be forced to reconsider how quickly we reach for these treatments.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#64

As someone who has gone through a phase of questioning my ... inner state of the matter on this topic, now in retrospect, I am so so so so soooooo glad that such options were not readily available to me. If I was that age in the current world, I simply would've done it. Given the permanent nature of a transition on a body, I really wish the advocates of pushing this at young ages would not push back against discussio…

Kids rarely get to decide unilaterally. They are evaluated by professionals. They don't just show up and say "give me permanent treatments."

There are people who detransition. It is rare. It is wild to me that each of these people matter more to you than each genuinely trans person who is unable to transition because of the law. Both of these sets of people are stuck in bodies they don't want. Why is one worthy of so much more empathy than the other?

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#65

As someone who has gone through a phase of questioning my ... inner state of the matter on this topic, now in retrospect, I am so so so so soooooo glad that such options were not readily available to me. If I was that age in the current world, I simply would've done it. Given the permanent nature of a transition on a body, I really wish the advocates of pushing this at young ages would not push back against discussio…

100%, completely agree with this. I was a raised in an small town in the US where men were expected to football-loving brutes with hair-trigger tempers and went deer-hunting on the weekend. Given I was never like this, I also went through a phase of questioning - until I realized there are many ways of being a man. But I didn't come to that realization until I was in college.

Okay. Is there any evidence that kids who go to a gender care specialist with the idea that they don't fit into typical gender norms just get signed up for transition care right away? Why are we assuming that "hey I don't like sports" gets you puberty blockers?

Kids undergo years of assessment.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#66
post #30

This thread will likely have extensive hate on a very small portion of the population. A reminder that actual people have been turned into a cultural wedge issue, their lives put in danger due to the vitriol the culture war issue has stirred. If you have known a person who has transitioned, you'd likely see someone happier after being able to transition. Laws targeting trans people won't stop an actual criminal from…

You have to be an adult to get a tattoo. Because by then, you're expected to be able to make a well-informed descision and be able to think of possible coonsequences. Why on earth would a child be allowed to decide on life-changing or even life-shattering bodily harm?

Tattoos aren't medical care that dramatically improves the lives of people.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that a modal person who transitions does so because they don't understand what biological changes can be achieved* and/or because society doesn't accept them "as they are" enough, you are hopelessly confused about this entire topic. *Note that a disagreement about whether currently available medical procedures constitute a "sex change" is almost always a dispute of semantics and not of fact. A trans woma…

You're not getting my point. I've seen that trans people don't want others to think of them as their former sex, they don't want to be reminded that they're still men that look look like women, or viceversa. Mentioning that they can't actually get pregnant, or impregnate someone, is taboo. IMO, this shows a strong psychological, rather than medical, motive. That sets their personal expectations to an impossible ideal…

This is, frankly, ridiculous. You don't know a single trans person and are making a broad sweeping claim about trans people being unreasonable in conversation about the nature of their transition?

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#68

This thread will likely have extensive hate on a very small portion of the population. A reminder that actual people have been turned into a cultural wedge issue, their lives put in danger due to the vitriol the culture war issue has stirred. If you have known a person who has transitioned, you'd likely see someone happier after being able to transition. Laws targeting trans people won't stop an actual criminal from…

> culture war issue I'm 100% with Sarah McBride on this. The blame for this culture war is arguably as much because of how pro-trans folks handled it as it is resistance from conservatives. It did not need to happen this way. There will be progress in the future but it definitely got set back a ways over the last few years. Unfortunately with collateral damage for the rest of the LGBT community.

The culture war started in the US when North Carolina passed a bathroom bill. Prior to this we'd had trans people participating in sports, using the bathroom of their choice, and being allowed to medically transition for years and years. The idea that trans people somehow brought this on themselves for being too pushy is simply false.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#69
> A high-profile clinical trial of drugs that can delay puberty in children questioning their gender can go ahead after the High Court rejected a legal challenge by campaigners.

The trial protocol said diagnosed with gender incongruence. And explained this.[1] Not questioning their gender.

[1] https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-t...

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#70
post #61
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case regretting it generally means stopping taking blockers and letting puberty progress as it would without the intervention. Puberty blockers give time to assess if further intervention is needed later (such as hormone replacement therapy)

That's not true. There was recently a woman who ended up with a masculinized body with apparently no room to revert the change.

There was an old woman who lived in a shoe. She had so many children, she didn't know what to do.

See, you can say literally anything without citing a source.

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