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Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

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Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#11

Post by exabrial »

Solutions are simple and we keep making this hard:

1. Stop raising minimum wage. It doesn't do what you think it does. And if hang around any politicians' backoffices anyway, you realize the only reason this is ever raised is to manipulate voter turnout. Not difficult, just difficult to explain since it deals with second and third order consequences.

2. Do not let employers include tips as part of meeting minimum wage law. If minimum wage is $8/hr, then employers must pay $8/hr. Wages are paid by employers. Tips are not paid by employers. Also not difficult.

3. No Taxes on tips, anywhere. These aren't wages, and are not subject to wage or payroll taxes. Also, not difficult.

And lastly, tips before services rendered are stupid. Everyone knows it and is confused by it. It's something that needs to go away, but that isn't something that should be regulated into existence.

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#12

Post by unethical_ban »

exabrial wrote: post #11

Solutions are simple and we keep making this hard: 1. Stop raising minimum wage. It doesn't do what you think it does. And if hang around any politicians' backoffices anyway, you realize the only reason this is ever raised is to manipulate voter turnout. Not difficult, just difficult to explain since it deals with second and third order consequences. 2. Do not let employers include tips as part of meeting minimum wag…

I agree with 2 and 3. Tipping should not be a mandatory part of someone making a living.

Regarding 1: How does society guarantee a worker gets sufficient compensation for their work, and receives enough money to live in the area where they work in order to afford housing and food and healthcare?

We see trillion dollar companies paying their workers minimum wage, and scheduling workers below full time to avoid providing them benefits. We subsidize Walmart when their workers need food stamps to survive. Without a minimum wage it would be even worse.

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#13

Post by spopejoy »

commandlinefan wrote: post #3
darkwizard42 wrote: post #2

I think this just further confuses end users and is another reason we should get rid of tipping culture. Tips are currently serving several purposes in users' minds: 1. earned for great service 2. to make up for lower base pay (tipped min wage is lower in many US states) 3. to help employees who they feel aren't making enough Now reasons #2 and #3 are no longer true because driers are now fairly (IMHO) compensated th…

Yeah, the change was to force the apps to include a tip option before the food arrived, which users interpret as the "don't spit in my food" option. Of _course_ tips went up when the apps were forced to make this change.

Before the guaranteed wages all the apps had the tip option at checkout.

When NYC enforced a liveable wage, the delivery apps raised holy hell including intrusive popups in the ads telling you how horrible it was for you the innocent consumer, plus added a special extra charge to rub it in.

They ALSO at this time moved the tip to post-checkout which was just an asshole, anti-driver move, explicitly to punish drivers. Tip before checkout was the norm and they changed it in an openly spiteful move.

Even those who like tipping tipped less because now you had to remember to go back to your app to tip. The net effect of the spiteful move was to punish drivers.

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#14

Post by stephen_cagle »

exabrial wrote: post #11

Solutions are simple and we keep making this hard: 1. Stop raising minimum wage. It doesn't do what you think it does. And if hang around any politicians' backoffices anyway, you realize the only reason this is ever raised is to manipulate voter turnout. Not difficult, just difficult to explain since it deals with second and third order consequences. 2. Do not let employers include tips as part of meeting minimum wag…

1) (Neutral) I'd need to see more evidence of that.

2) (Unambiguously yes) If your business does not make financial sense without tips, then it isn't a business. There are many businesses that can't currently compete with businesses' that tip, see next point.

3) (Modestly disagree) I would support a 50% tax on tips in general. It should be something that only the wealthy do as a flex, not something that we are normalizing among 95% of the population.

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#15

Post by malshe »

thisislife2 wrote: post #4

US tipping culture is insane: 1. If "tips" in the US are "compulsory" because customers should make up for the poor wage the delivery people get paid, why is there still a compulsion for tipping now as the wages have been increased (and presumably is "fair")? 2. And if the wages are "fair" now, why should a customer be forced to tip when they are making an order, rather than after they have received the order and can…

Agree 100%. We have reached a point where delivery costs almost match the food costs. It's cheaper for me to drive to the restaurant and pick up the order. Even then the restaurant prompts to leave a tip.

I vaguely remember seeing a post on Reddit showing a vending machine asking for a tip.

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#16

Post by ElevenLathe »

jubilee33 wrote: post #8
ElevenLathe wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had honestly forgotten about reason #1 as I haven't heard anyone mentioning the service when leaving a tip in decades. IMO that's dying boomer behavior. Everyone understands that tipped workers are universally underpaid, and either tip generously in solidarity (if they are normal or vaguely left wing/liberal) or tip the minimum they can get away with socially or legally (if they misanthropes or right wingers). The…

I don't tip at all, ever. What are my politics? I'm genuinely curious.

Per the formulation in my post, that puts you in the misanthrope/right winger category, but presumably you are asking because in this case you don't feel that's right as some kind of gotcha.

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#17

Post by Starman_Jones »

malshe wrote: post #15
thisislife2 wrote: post #4

US tipping culture is insane: 1. If "tips" in the US are "compulsory" because customers should make up for the poor wage the delivery people get paid, why is there still a compulsion for tipping now as the wages have been increased (and presumably is "fair")? 2. And if the wages are "fair" now, why should a customer be forced to tip when they are making an order, rather than after they have received the order and can…

Agree 100%. We have reached a point where delivery costs almost match the food costs. It's cheaper for me to drive to the restaurant and pick up the order. Even then the restaurant prompts to leave a tip. I vaguely remember seeing a post on Reddit showing a vending machine asking for a tip.

That happened to me as well! I was asked to tip on an automated coffee dispenser…

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#18

Post by pcthrowaway »

malshe wrote: post #15
thisislife2 wrote: post #4

US tipping culture is insane: 1. If "tips" in the US are "compulsory" because customers should make up for the poor wage the delivery people get paid, why is there still a compulsion for tipping now as the wages have been increased (and presumably is "fair")? 2. And if the wages are "fair" now, why should a customer be forced to tip when they are making an order, rather than after they have received the order and can…

Agree 100%. We have reached a point where delivery costs almost match the food costs. It's cheaper for me to drive to the restaurant and pick up the order. Even then the restaurant prompts to leave a tip. I vaguely remember seeing a post on Reddit showing a vending machine asking for a tip.

> It's cheaper for me to drive to the restaurant and pick up the order

Of course it is... were you expecting delivery companies to perform magic while humans are required to bring you your food?

If a burrito costs $15, it may cost $30 to have it delivered from 20 minutes away; the alternative is 40 minutes of your time and $15. The thesis of delivery companies is that you value 40 minutes of your time more than $15.

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#19

Post by TitaRusell »

commandlinefan wrote: post #3
darkwizard42 wrote: post #2

I think this just further confuses end users and is another reason we should get rid of tipping culture. Tips are currently serving several purposes in users' minds: 1. earned for great service 2. to make up for lower base pay (tipped min wage is lower in many US states) 3. to help employees who they feel aren't making enough Now reasons #2 and #3 are no longer true because driers are now fairly (IMHO) compensated th…

Yeah, the change was to force the apps to include a tip option before the food arrived, which users interpret as the "don't spit in my food" option. Of _course_ tips went up when the apps were forced to make this change.

I usually give a tip because the delivery drivers here are actual teenagers not illegal immigrants. We all remember doing those jobs so it's societal nostalgia.

Re: Delivery workers made $104M more in tips after NYC began enforcing new law

#20

Post by krapp »

TitaRusell wrote: post #19
commandlinefan wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the change was to force the apps to include a tip option before the food arrived, which users interpret as the "don't spit in my food" option. Of _course_ tips went up when the apps were forced to make this change.

I usually give a tip because the delivery drivers here are actual teenagers not illegal immigrants. We all remember doing those jobs so it's societal nostalgia.

How can you tell the difference between "actual teenagers" and "illegal immigrants?"
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