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Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

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111–120 of 122 posts

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#111

I don't think I want a scientific theory of music. That would take the fun out of it. I like music that matches my tastes while still managing to surprise me. What else do I need to know about music? And what about the discovery that happens when you make your own music? If this was replaced by the perfect scientific theory and a computer program cranking out perfect songs, our incentive for being creative would be g…

This is like saying we should not study physics because if we did then all art could be automatically generated.

Are you saying demystifying music is as important as understanding physics?

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" by Arthur H. Benade? I'm interested in buying the book, but I'm not sure which one you mean. Do you perhaps even have the ISBN?

That's the one. I read the 2nd edition on kindle. There is only one short chapter on harmony but discussion of tone, intervals, etc is comprehensive.

Alright, thanks a lot :)

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really not true. Firstly, "western electronic music" covers an enormous range, from still, wall-of-sound ambient to four-on-the-floor EDM to music that sounds like any other but is generated using electronic/digital instruments. Secondly, I could give you tons of examples of western electronic music that is almost entirely about harmony and not melody. The first one that springs to mind is any of Steve Roach'…

"Western electronic music" is anything that uses an instrument with a filter cutoff knob. Filter knobs and polyphony don't play together well. That's why they gravitate towards "leads" or "pads" over a separate bass or percussion track. Unlike normal Western polyphony you want the two to NOT form chords or counterpoint.

This just isn't true. Try listening to any deep ambient, and you'll be hearing (a) instruments with filter cutoffs in use (b) chords (c) no percussion (d) no lead. Again, Roach's "Mystic Chords and Sacred Spaces" is as good a place to start as any.

What is true in ambient is that you frequently do not want the third in the chords, because it makes the chords "too obvious". A lot of drone music involves a variety of chords with the third omitted.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#114
post #18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Worse" is definitely a subjective appreciation influenced by culture and personal taste.

That's why it's questionable, because it's subjective. It would be factual to find the keys to determine what sounds "worse" across the majority of subjective opinions, independent of culture and personal taste.

Yeah. If anyone doubts this go listen to some gamelan music and see if they can make any sense of it (harmonically speaking).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGCSrC8RN6c

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#115

Check out the 3Blue1Brown video on this topic as well! It goes more in depth on music theory than any music-community one I've seen. (Which tend to be presented as "Here are the rules"; Grant, like this article, goes into the "why"; a step below. With great visuals, of course!

Please provide a link.

Oops! It was Minute Physics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCsl6ZcY9ag

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#116
post #23

I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on…

I don't buy that minor being "sad" is all nurture and no nature. No matter what tempo or rhythm you put on it or what instruments you use to play it, it may not sound sad, it may sound dramatic and powerful instead, but it never sounds upbeat and happy the way major does (or at least can ).

> but TO ME it never sounds upbeat and happy the way major does (or at least can)

FTFY. Notice when you conflate subjective experiences with objective ones. You have been molded by the culture you grew up with. Trying to disentangle yourself from it is like for a monolingual person to express thoughts without using a language.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Western electronic music" is anything that uses an instrument with a filter cutoff knob. Filter knobs and polyphony don't play together well. That's why they gravitate towards "leads" or "pads" over a separate bass or percussion track. Unlike normal Western polyphony you want the two to NOT form chords or counterpoint.

This just isn't true. Try listening to any deep ambient, and you'll be hearing (a) instruments with filter cutoffs in use (b) chords (c) no percussion (d) no lead. Again, Roach's "Mystic Chords and Sacred Spaces" is as good a place to start as any. What is true in ambient is that you frequently do not want the third in the chords, because it makes the chords "too obvious". A lot of drone music involves a variety of c…

IMO "chords" is the wrong word to use here, because chords are a fingering technique for polyphonic instruments. (So, guitar, piano, accordion, and ... that's it?)

What I mean is voice leading and counterpoint - once you have a filter sweep as an instrument you now need to deliberately avoid all that when composing.

People act as if these Western music theory concepts are grand universals, but they're really just useful conventions for the particular music instruments common at the time. They're not even universal for all of Western music; when the instruments evolved so did the conventions and the "theory".

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the major/minor thing so fascinating. I remember it having the "happy"/"sad" vibes from my earliest memories and have a really hard time with the idea that it could be cultural. But if it's not cultural, then why? Also is the fact that major 9ths have a beach/island vibe cultural due to Brazilian jazz? :-)

Silly theory for why minor sounds sad: Say "ah", like you've just discovered something interesting. Now say "ah" like you've been told something sad. Notice the pitch difference? And notice how both pitches are about a major third and minor third above normal speaking pitch. Whether that's hard-wired or cultural, I couldn't say. But it would certainly be an interesting thing to research and compare across cultures an…

Harry Partch has a book Genesis of a Music, which is half autobiography and half a theory that all melody derives from the micro pitch variations of speech - as in melody is a stretched out version of how we speak. I don't know if this idea has ever been pursued more academically but I find it very interesting. If it's true, I also wonder if there's feedback, like our vocal inflections are influenced by music melodies just as much as vice versa.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just isn't true. Try listening to any deep ambient, and you'll be hearing (a) instruments with filter cutoffs in use (b) chords (c) no percussion (d) no lead. Again, Roach's "Mystic Chords and Sacred Spaces" is as good a place to start as any. What is true in ambient is that you frequently do not want the third in the chords, because it makes the chords "too obvious". A lot of drone music involves a variety of c…

IMO "chords" is the wrong word to use here, because chords are a fingering technique for polyphonic instruments. (So, guitar, piano, accordion, and ... that's it?) What I mean is voice leading and counterpoint - once you have a filter sweep as an instrument you now need to deliberately avoid all that when composing. People act as if these Western music theory concepts are grand universals, but they're really just use…

"Chords" is definitely the wrong word to use if you mean "voice leading and counterpoint" or more generally, western tonal music theory. And yes, that theory is highly localized in both time and space.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#120
post #23

I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on…

> if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves Not necessarily: if you read the essay, one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude, an obvious optimization for reducing circuitry. If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer for a particular harmonic series; instead we need an input that places it relative to the…

I ask that you please read the comments before you make your own comments, just as you asked people to read the paper before commenting (I did!)

> Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact

I never said that. I said "Though it's built on harmonics and overtones which can be explained objectively, you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics." To put it in your terms, "you cannot make a fully scientific theory since nurture factors in just as much (and maybe even more) than nature". The world is not black and white, just because I believe sociology to be critical to understanding the emotional effect of music on people, does not mean I'm claiming there is no objective, measurable component.

> If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer"

Ok so the happiest music is perfect fifths? Or is 3/2 ratio also too simple? So when does this recognizer get complicated enough to fire? 5/4? For someone claiming to have a scientific theory, you are making a lot of assumptions to make this theory work. Scientific theory is about testing hypothesis to reveal truth and not making hypothesis up to match what you already believe. You make an assumption that the brain wraps/aliases frequencies, create a theory of the recognizer, and then make that recognizer have a very convenient threshold that it makes a physical process suddenly the reasoning for "happy". To the "fully scientfic theory" above, I absolutely agree that ratios play a part, simple ratios are boring, and get more interesting as they get complex, then get too complex and it sounds dissonant. That part I think we, and most people, can agree is objectively true, and fits in the theory of expectation vs surprise at a microscale. I just don't agree this translates to "happy" or "sad". Please show me an experiment that indicates the kind of recognizer that you're talking about, or some kind of cross cultural link between ratios and emotional quality. I'd actually be very curious about that, as it's been a while since I've been reading papers about this.

> The music was played into the brain with the root removed; when coming out of the brain of the owl, brain had restored the root

Yes, I'm sure you know this, I'm just showing I know this too - this is called psychoacoustic bass, and happens as part of the feedback loop between the brain processing and the actual ear - the ear actually generates the root tone! This could also be a product of pattern matching though, as we're used to hearing related harmonics (say 200, 300hz) with a root (100hz), so if we just get the harmonics without a root (200, 300hz) the psychoacoustic part of your brain helps out by filling in the 100hz - this is an alternate theory to the aliasing/halving/doubling theory you put out, not saying either one is absolutely true, just that there are other explanations for the owl thing.

It also has nothing to do with the emotional effect of the music.

> So at Berklee they teach recognizer algorithms and artifacts thereof?

Again, I did not say that. I'm not talking about the speculative, non-experimentally backed parts of your theory, just the parts of your essay that are part of the common scientific consensus. I said "ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee". Nothing more.

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