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Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

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Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#91
post #23

I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on…

> if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves Not necessarily: if you read the essay, one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude, an obvious optimization for reducing circuitry. If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer for a particular harmonic series; instead we need an input that places it relative to the…

> one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude

You've got an awful lot of assumptions in there that I don't think are at all supported, and this is one. It's also contradicted by 3.5.2 in the article: if the brain were actually doing this, then you could, say, replace the 9th by the 2nd.

> Ok, but where do the expectations come from? Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact; you just assert it without proof.

I interpreted "mostly meets expectations but surprises you" as referring to things like chord progressions creating tension and resolving it, for which you don't need major triads. (and of which there's no discussion in the article).

> In contrast, there is strong evidence for the absolute nature of auditory processing

I'm perfectly happy to grant that an owl experienced the sensation of a pitch at a frequency that was not actually present, but there's something missing here that's also totally missing from the article: the role of the cochlea. The brain doesn't experience sounds, i.e. the pressure waves in the air, the brain experiences electrical signals transmitted to it that, tinnitus aside, come from excitement of the cochlea by those pressure waves. How do we know that there isn't some kind of mechanical resonance somewhere in the ear that fills in the missing root? And if we know there isn't in the human ear, how do we know the same for the owl?

> The explanation of the experience of the minor triad in "Harmony Explained" requires the concept of an inconsistency arising from a redundant recognizer algorithm.

Once upon a time the explanation of the propagation of light required the concept of a luminiferous ether.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#92

I have to highly recommend the book 'Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics' for mathematical/physical explanations of sound and music. Bells having multiple resonant modes, tuning kettle drums, how string materials and plucking methods changes harmonic profiles, why having lots of high frequency harmonics sounds bright (and electric guitars, pianos optimise for this), why sounds without high frequency harmonics sound hol…

Are you talking about "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" by Arthur H. Benade? I'm interested in buying the book, but I'm not sure which one you mean. Do you perhaps even have the ISBN?

That's the one. I read the 2nd edition on kindle. There is only one short chapter on harmony but discussion of tone, intervals, etc is comprehensive.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#93
This seems to be the 9th time that my paper on harmony has been on Hacker News. I wonder if it has been on HN more than any other paper on arxiv: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

I have one request: if you are going to comment on the paper, please actually read it first. Here is a little test to check that you read it: did you notice the points below?

(1) This is a paper in the field of Computer Science. Having studied music all of your life, even at Berklee, does not qualify you in Computer Science, so be open to learning what Computer Science is. In science we have a practice of making the simplest model we can from which emerge the observed measurements. Hence the remark by Feynman quoted near the top of the paper on how to know when you are right:

"When you get it right, it is obvious that it is right -- at least if you have any experience -- because usually what happens is that more comes out than goes in. Your guess is, in fact, that something is very simple. If you cannot see immediately that it is wrong, and it is simpler than it was before, then it is right. The inexperienced, and crackpots, and people like that, make guesses that are simple, but you can immediately see that they are wrong, so that does not count. Others, the inexperienced students, make guesses that are very complicated and it sort of looks as if it is all right, but I know it is not true because the truth always turns out to be simpler than you thought."

Many of you seem to like very complex explanations of harmony. Note that Feynman is saying that is not an indication of a theory being right.

(2) This problem has not really been solved before. Even someone like Daniel Levitin was convinced (the last time I spoke to him) that Helmholtz had the correct theory of harmony. However, as I point out in the paper:

* The American Acoustical Society has a collection of experiments, one of which they say (not just me), proves Helmholtz's theory is wrong.

* If Helmholtz is right, playing multiple notes always sounds either a little worse or a lot worse, but never better, and so we would never play two notes at the same time at all; harmony would not exist and there would be nothing to explain.

(3) There is strong evidence for the absolute nature of auditory processing that is not only cross-cultural, but cross-species. In the paper, there is a quotation from Daniel Levitin's book "This is your Brain on Music", where he discusses an experiment he witnessed in graduate school where music was played through wiring directly into the brain of an owl. The music was played into the brain with the root removed; when coming out of the brain of the owl, brain had restored the root (see the paper for details).

That means that virtual pitch (1) is created by the structure of the brain, not by a cultural expectation, and (2) further, that it is created by the brain of, not just a human, but of an owl! This is a very strong argument for the assertion that the processing of sound and the artifacts thereof are quite universal.

(4) The explanation of the experience of the minor triad in "Harmony Explained" requires the concept of an inconsistency arising from a redundant recognizer algorithm. Being a musician does not make you an expert in recognizer algorithms and their emergent artifacts, so read what that is before you comment.

The theory of the minor goes like this: two redundant recognizers exist in the brain. When hearing a minor triad:

* one recognizer fires, that of the conjunction of three pairwise intervals of tones,

* whereas another recognizer does not fire, that of the triple of tones in order.

This combination of firings is inconsistent because it is not possible for it to occur by playing any single normal harmonic series on, say, a flute. To generate it, one must play multiple notes and then use the effect of the recognizer of intervals pairing up tones from across the notes. That is, this is a new kind of auditory perception that can be created as an artifact of the auditory recognizer algorithms of the brain, but cannot be heard otherwise.

If you object to my assertion that minor triad is well-described as "I recognize it, but something is wrong", try reading the explanation in the paper of the same phenomenon in visual perception called cubism. Say what you will about the minor triad, when you look at Picasso's "Head of Woman" (provided in the paper), does it not disturb you? Would not not describe it as "I recognize it, but something is wrong"? Does your objection to the analysis of the minor still stand in the context of visual art?

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#94

I agree that there's a lot to be desired in the pedagogy of music theory, but this is pretty bad. There are so many little things wrong with it that if I started trying to address them all I'd be here forever. Anybody interested in this stuff would be better off with something like Tuning Timbre Spectrum Scale ( https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/ttss.html ) or Music a Mathematical Offering ( https://homepages.abdn.ac.uk…

Responses that say "If I started listing criticisms I would never finish" usually have none. Name 3.

I gave a couple in my other reply, the most damning (imo) was that you completely ignore the cochlea.

My biggest overall critique is that you start with the assumption that everything is an algorithm, that the brain works like a computer, and the world can be derived from that.

"To the intuition of anyone who has seen hardware designed it seems very likely that the brain is halving/doubling frequencies by many different powers of two in parallel and then running all of the results through the frequency recognizer at once. If any one matches, the harmonic has been found. If this were so, then tones (and notes) that differ from each other by a factor of two would sound very much alike. "

I don't see why I should care about a hardware designer's opinion on the matter any more than a clockmaker's or a dog trainer's.

"1.5.1 Timbre: Systematic Distortions from the Ideal Harmonic Series" I don't believe you ever mention how you want the intensities in your "ideal harmonic series" to be distribute, so why does changing the relative intensities to get timbre matter? If I have an ideal harmonic series with peaks at 220Hz, 440Hz, 880Hz, etc, what should its intensities be? Timbre also has to take into account the full ADSR envelope.

"That is, two notes (series-es of overtones) made by the same (kind of) instrument will be distorted from the ideal Harmonic Series in the same (or similar) way. This must be the case in order for an instrument or instrument kind to have a uniform, recognizable timbre"

If you get a guitar in standard tuning and play, say, the 5th fret on the 6th string it sounds different than the open 5th string, despite them both being the same 'A'.

"But The Nasca People Of Peru Use A Linear, Not A Logarithmic, Scale!" "Who knows what is going on with the linear scales of the Nasca. I suspect the following: Linear-scale flutes are easy to make ... This culture was small and isolated and so no one ever noticed harmony"

I checked the cited article (Joerg Haeberli (1979). Twelve Nasca Panpipes: A Study. Ethnomusicology, 23(1), 57–74. doi:10.2307/851338 ). Among the things I learned: (1) At least some of the pipes were ceramic (picture here: https://artmuseum.princeton.edu/art/collections/objects/1374...) (and the Brooklyn Museum claims that "hundreds" have been found: https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/objects/51700), this is not consistent with a culture that is just figuring things out (2) "Intervals close to the fifth, major third, minor third, and major second occur".

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#95
post #23

I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on…

I find the major/minor thing so fascinating. I remember it having the "happy"/"sad" vibes from my earliest memories and have a really hard time with the idea that it could be cultural. But if it's not cultural, then why? Also is the fact that major 9ths have a beach/island vibe cultural due to Brazilian jazz? :-)

Silly theory for why minor sounds sad: Say "ah", like you've just discovered something interesting. Now say "ah" like you've been told something sad. Notice the pitch difference? And notice how both pitches are about a major third and minor third above normal speaking pitch. Whether that's hard-wired or cultural, I couldn't say. But it would certainly be an interesting thing to research and compare across cultures and musical traditions.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#96
Awfully dismissive of non western tonal harmonic systems for a universal theory of music? The whole idea that musical traditions that use less harmonic structures just haven't unlocked all the structures available is kind of absurd - those musical traditions have been developing for the same amount of time - and there's a pretty huge blind spot for other traditions. The whole microtones just being ornamentations - no that's absolutely not the case. Trying to ignore/hand wave away all the counterexamples and force them into your system is how you get epicycles. If you're gonna do a universal theory of music it would be a good idea to engage deeply with more than one system. As a universal theory of harmonica maybe that's fine but it's sloppy and motivated reasoning

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#97

Awfully dismissive of non western tonal harmonic systems for a universal theory of music? The whole idea that musical traditions that use less harmonic structures just haven't unlocked all the structures available is kind of absurd - those musical traditions have been developing for the same amount of time - and there's a pretty huge blind spot for other traditions. The whole microtones just being ornamentations - no…

More directly the stuff about ranking different cultures on a scale of musical sophistication that ends in western harmonic music and dismissing obvious counterexamples as cultures that just haven't gotten there yet or just use other feature as ornamentation or just happened to not stumble on things because they were at the lowest level of musical sophistication is almost comically ethnocentric. Its an easy hammer to reach for when your counterarguments are not European (though in this case you're having to ignore an awful lot of European music and the huge influence of Greek music on the middle East) but yeesh

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#98

This seems to be the 9th time that my paper on harmony has been on Hacker News. I wonder if it has been on HN more than any other paper on arxiv: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... I have one request: if you are going to comment on the paper, please actually read it first. Here is a little test to check that you read it: did you notice the points below? (1) This is a paper in the field of…

It's a good quote from Feynman. I think you'll find if you measure your paper against that honestly, you'll see where it continues to fall short, as far less falls out than goes in. All the counterexamples find themselves being dismissed by vague speculation, often not supported by further research, and that impulse towards dismissing things that don't nearly fit the theory means the theory is restricted from finding a path towards generalizing and capturing deeper truths - you end up with epicycles instead of universal equations

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#99
I think the most fascinating thing about music (from a mathematical/scientific perspective) is the fact that the principal harmonics of equal temperament are so close to the mathematical ideals. Fourths and fifths are so close trained musicians typically cannot hear the difference. Major thirds are farther from the ideal but still are less than 1% off. That can be heard by the trained ear, but in the real world there are chorus effects (multiple voices/instruments at nominal but slightly varied pitch), vibrato, reverb etc. such that in most cases a just major 3rd sounds fine.

Without just temperament, we would never have had "The Well Tempered Clavier", Bobby Daren's "Mac The knife", and basically all of western music from the baroque period on.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, other traditions focus on melody over harmony Like Western electronic music written after 1960, for example. :) (And electronic music is, like, basically all we have today.)

This is really not true. Firstly, "western electronic music" covers an enormous range, from still, wall-of-sound ambient to four-on-the-floor EDM to music that sounds like any other but is generated using electronic/digital instruments. Secondly, I could give you tons of examples of western electronic music that is almost entirely about harmony and not melody. The first one that springs to mind is any of Steve Roach'…

"Western electronic music" is anything that uses an instrument with a filter cutoff knob.

Filter knobs and polyphony don't play together well.

That's why they gravitate towards "leads" or "pads" over a separate bass or percussion track. Unlike normal Western polyphony you want the two to NOT form chords or counterpoint.

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