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Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

newscientist.com

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Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#71

Post by ck2 »

masklinn wrote: post #49
ikidd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they have writing and kept records that we've found? That's the "recorded" part.

If writing is your yardstick then 7000 years is way too far back. There was likely proto-writing back then (some of the figures at gobekli tepe are found in a very similar form in later scripts of the area[1], there are clearer forms of proto-writings from CA 6000~7000 BCE in various cultures) however writing proper is only currently known from 3000 BCE onwards. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330759548_…

some disagreement emerges from the fact that there are several "cradles" of civilization, not just one where everything spread from

so they each have different timelines/landmarks

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization

> The concept of a cradle of civilization has a focus where the inhabitants came to build cities, to create writing systems, to experiment in techniques for making pottery and using metals, to domesticate animals, and to develop complex social structures involving class systems

> Today, scholarship generally identifies six areas where civilization emerged independently: the Fertile Crescent, including Mesopotamia and the Levant; the Nile Valley in Northeast Africa; the Indo-Gangetic Plain; the North China Plain; the Andean Coast; and the Mesoamerican Gulf Coast

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#72

Post by marking-time »

soperj wrote: post #56
stevenwoo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case they have carbon dated wooden equipment for fish farming and know due to geological factors when the lake could support fish, though of course the fish might have gotten there first somehow. I thought this was interesting because it predates agriculture in the same area.

How did wooden equipment not whither away in 7000 years?

Artifacts that survive this long are usually found in a buried context, which can, under favorable conditions, preserve them for long periods of time.

The artifact can be buried by colluvial(gravity driven), or alluvial(water driven) deposition before they have a chance to decay. For more information you can consult a geomorphologist, which I am not.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#73

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #42
m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

Birds can drop fish after they've captured them. Not longer than a year now, we were visiting my wife's family, and me and my father in law got to Walmart there was a dead fish in the front, but when we mentioned it to my wife who got there before us (separate cars) she said it was struggling for life when they saw it, I don't think there was a lake nearby enough, but I wouldn't be surprised if birds have accidentall…

Yeah, but at least two live fish (a male and female) being dropped into the same remote lake, then finding each other at spawning time seems increasing implausible. Never say never, but ...

Apparently some fish species do have small sticky eggs that can stick to the legs of water fowl, or even (with very small probability) pass through them intact, so this seems much more likely. Maybe a group of ducks feeding in one place then flying off to another?

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#74

Post by bluGill »

jjallen wrote: post #52
wil421 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lakes have connected rivers and streams that provide paths for fish and eggs to move around. There are human and animal activities that affect this. Your bird example and beavers causing floods could allow movement.

So many lakes do not have rivers flowing in and out. A low spot in an area will become a lake. Many do have rivers; many don't. Ponds even more so don't have attached rivers.

Many ponds have seasonal streams. In spring (when the snow melts) they get connected to the local river system by a shallow stream, then when the water levels go down the stream disappears but the pond remains. Also beavers may flood a large area, then move on leaving a formerly connected pond isolated again.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#75

Post by [deleted] »

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #73
giancarlostoro wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Birds can drop fish after they've captured them. Not longer than a year now, we were visiting my wife's family, and me and my father in law got to Walmart there was a dead fish in the front, but when we mentioned it to my wife who got there before us (separate cars) she said it was struggling for life when they saw it, I don't think there was a lake nearby enough, but I wouldn't be surprised if birds have accidentall…

Yeah, but at least two live fish (a male and female) being dropped into the same remote lake, then finding each other at spawning time seems increasing implausible. Never say never, but ... Apparently some fish species do have small sticky eggs that can stick to the legs of water fowl, or even (with very small probability) pass through them intact, so this seems much more likely. Maybe a group of ducks feeding in one…

[deleted]

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#76

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

soperj wrote: post #56
stevenwoo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case they have carbon dated wooden equipment for fish farming and know due to geological factors when the lake could support fish, though of course the fish might have gotten there first somehow. I thought this was interesting because it predates agriculture in the same area.

How did wooden equipment not whither away in 7000 years?

Intact human bodies thousands of years old have been found in Irish bogs - cold, anoxic, acidic. Apparently in this case cold and anoxic were part of it, and also pine resin in the wood acting as a perservative.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#77

Post by austin-cheney »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #42
m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

Birds can drop fish after they've captured them. Not longer than a year now, we were visiting my wife's family, and me and my father in law got to Walmart there was a dead fish in the front, but when we mentioned it to my wife who got there before us (separate cars) she said it was struggling for life when they saw it, I don't think there was a lake nearby enough, but I wouldn't be surprised if birds have accidentall…

More likely is that birds move fish between bodies of water because of fish eggs they carry on their bodies. This is how most bodies of water become supremely populated in Texas. In Texas all ground water sources, other than 1 lake on the far east side, are created by people in recent decades and almost all of these bodies are full of fish that did not get there on their own.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#80

Post by butvacuum »

austin-cheney wrote: post #77
giancarlostoro wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Birds can drop fish after they've captured them. Not longer than a year now, we were visiting my wife's family, and me and my father in law got to Walmart there was a dead fish in the front, but when we mentioned it to my wife who got there before us (separate cars) she said it was struggling for life when they saw it, I don't think there was a lake nearby enough, but I wouldn't be surprised if birds have accidentall…

More likely is that birds move fish between bodies of water because of fish eggs they carry on their bodies. This is how most bodies of water become supremely populated in Texas. In Texas all ground water sources, other than 1 lake on the far east side, are created by people in recent decades and almost all of these bodies are full of fish that did not get there on their own.

most of them are populated thanks to explicit efforts from the government.
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