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Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

newscientist.com

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Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#51

Post by hnlmorg »

iefbr14 wrote: post #5
m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

Fish eggs often travel long distances by sticking to the feathers or legs of waterfowl I have been told at school long ago.

I’ve wondered if natural phenomena like tornadoes could carry fish eggs those kinds of distances. Or even just carry the eggs into the clouds, to be rained down large distances away.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#52

Post by jjallen »

wil421 wrote: post #36
jjallen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't provide an answer for lakes. But I always thought the explanation was eggs randomly getting stuck to bird feet. Or maybe a bird carries a fish with eggs up there and eats it or something. Inevitably it happens though...

Lakes have connected rivers and streams that provide paths for fish and eggs to move around. There are human and animal activities that affect this. Your bird example and beavers causing floods could allow movement.

So many lakes do not have rivers flowing in and out. A low spot in an area will become a lake.

Many do have rivers; many don't. Ponds even more so don't have attached rivers.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#53

Post by Kye »

stevenwoo wrote: post #4
m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

In this case they have carbon dated wooden equipment for fish farming and know due to geological factors when the lake could support fish, though of course the fish might have gotten there first somehow. I thought this was interesting because it predates agriculture in the same area.

Humans were shaping their environments to produce food long before they plowed fields. Hunter-gatherers didn't just hunt and gather willy-nilly, picking up whatever they found, oblivious to how it got there.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#54

Post by jerf »

jmalicki wrote: post #40
wil421 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lakes have connected rivers and streams that provide paths for fish and eggs to move around. There are human and animal activities that affect this. Your bird example and beavers causing floods could allow movement.

Isolated alpine lakes do not have connected rivers and streams, yet a ton are stocked with fish by humans. Is it unbelievable that ancient hunter-gatherers would do the same thing?

A lot of people are unaware of how much husbandry hunter-gatherers still did. They may not have been farmers, with field plantings, weeding, and harvest seasons designed to maximize every acre under production, but they weren't stupid and still spent time to bend the world around them to the task of providing them more resources than it would have on its own. On a bang-for-the-buck basis they often did better than the farmers, it's just that without farming you can't get that density and net return.

This looks like a good overview paper for interested folk: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3048989/

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#55

Post by soperj »

BurningFrog wrote: post #45
giancarlostoro wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Close, I looked it up out of curiosity, it seems Waterfowl eat the eggs, but they travel through their digestive system fully alive. Really interesting even so!

I can see how the evolutionary advantage of such hardened eggs would be huge!

I would think that would lead to a lot of inbred fish

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#56

Post by soperj »

stevenwoo wrote: post #4
m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

In this case they have carbon dated wooden equipment for fish farming and know due to geological factors when the lake could support fish, though of course the fish might have gotten there first somehow. I thought this was interesting because it predates agriculture in the same area.

How did wooden equipment not whither away in 7000 years?

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#57

Post by t-3 »

sejje wrote: post #7
ck2 wrote: post #6

I thought bird poop was the commonly accepted explanation 7000 years ago is the edge of recorded human civilization (well 8000 years, I remember this because it's also the edge of a gamma ray burst in light years that could destroy all life on earth after traveling all that time)

It doesn't matter if it's recorded. This is inferred, not written down. Hunter-gatherers aren't known for their civilizations.

Civilization refers to cities, not literature. Urban societies need writing and complex social rules to survive, but it's not as if those things can't or haven't arisen in other types of human societies.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#58

Post by [deleted] »

masklinn wrote: post #49
ikidd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they have writing and kept records that we've found? That's the "recorded" part.

If writing is your yardstick then 7000 years is way too far back. There was likely proto-writing back then (some of the figures at gobekli tepe are found in a very similar form in later scripts of the area[1], there are clearer forms of proto-writings from CA 6000~7000 BCE in various cultures) however writing proper is only currently known from 3000 BCE onwards. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330759548_…

[deleted]

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#59

Post by lazystar »

soperj wrote: post #55
BurningFrog wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see how the evolutionary advantage of such hardened eggs would be huge!

I would think that would lead to a lot of inbred fish

a high rate of mutations would be an advantage in a new environment, though.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#60

Post by wil421 »

jmalicki wrote: post #40
wil421 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lakes have connected rivers and streams that provide paths for fish and eggs to move around. There are human and animal activities that affect this. Your bird example and beavers causing floods could allow movement.

Isolated alpine lakes do not have connected rivers and streams, yet a ton are stocked with fish by humans. Is it unbelievable that ancient hunter-gatherers would do the same thing?

We are on the same side. I’ve been trying to show the difference between natural water processes and some else like birds or humans spreading fish.
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