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AI in Linux

drewdevault.com

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Re: AI in Linux

#31

Post by atemerev »

ch71r22 wrote: post #16
datakan wrote: post #4

I read through this and must have missed it, but I don't see a single example of AI use in the Linux kernel development posing a problem.

The article isn't trying to find a particular example. It's talking about the overall stance of Linux on AI use. It argues that maintainers should consider political/moral/ethical arguments around climate change, effect on water supplies, energy prices, etc.

AI is just a tech like any other. Can be powered by CO2-neutral electricity like anything else. Otherwise, we'll have to protest against aluminum cans, airplanes, golf courts, lemon trees, and whatever else that uses water or electricity.

Re: AI in Linux

#32

Post by atemerev »

criddell wrote: post #12

From the title, I was hoping this was going to be a story about the major AI distros agreeing on an API and basic AI capabilities to be included in Linux just like Microsoft and Apple have done with their operating systems. Instead, it's: > how many tons of CO₂ added to the atmosphere or liters of fresh water supplies disrupted is a tolerable price for a better code review? The answer isn't zero, is it?

And also it can be zero. Nuclear power is CO2 neutral. So is solar.

Re: AI in Linux

#33

Post by bigstrat2003 »

throwuxiytayq wrote: post #2

tl;dr Kernel devs should prompt less because it uses up water or something. Repeat after me: you can't put the cat back in the bag. Pandora's box is open. Sucks, but you have to learn to live with the reality that most developers will use AI to write code from now on.

> Sucks, but you have to learn to live with the reality that most developers will use AI to write code from now on.

No I don't. I can urge them to actually do their jobs and not just turn out slop, while refusing to use the slop machine myself.

Re: AI in Linux

#34

Post by datakan »

koolala wrote: post #17
datakan wrote: post #4

I read through this and must have missed it, but I don't see a single example of AI use in the Linux kernel development posing a problem.

The thing I'd worry about is it slowly handing over control of Linux's direction to the tech companies who control and regulate the AI being used to help develop it. The complexity is only growing. These companies are themselves extremely political and decide what AI is and isn't legal when Linux demands using the most capable models for security reasons. So it would be good at least if the project actually cared and…

But the code being GPL means those companies don't have control over it. They can restrict the use of AI but the codes already generated, they would just go back to writing by hand. Its a non-issue. The same objection came up when Microsoft started contributing to the kernel.

And despite the author’s logical leaps; no it's not impossible to fork the kernel and go another route. The fact it doesn't happen is because its stewardship so far has been exceptional.

It's not a political issue. It's a religious one with the anti AI people raising pitchforks.

Re: AI in Linux

#35

Post by rcxdude »

usrbinbash wrote: post #28
logancbrown wrote: post #11

>The same process is pricing regular people out of the energy they need to power their air conditioner during those heat waves and the technology it enables is pushing them out of the labor market and into poverty. I don't see evidence this is true, and the critical mass of data centers is making electricity cheaper. Economies of scale -> more energy = bigger electric plants = cheaper energy. https://netchoice.org/ne…

> Economies of scale -> more energy = bigger electric plants = cheaper energy. Problem is; power plants are not something that can be spun up with a kubectl invocation. Power plants need to be built. This process takes YEARS, and in some cases over a decade. And that's just the plants themselves. The grid also has to be built out to be able to handle the new load. And while this potentially +10year process is ongoing…

The largest build-out, which is in renewables, features plants that can go up very quickly, at least. The grid upgrades are the bigger bottleneck.

Re: AI in Linux

#36

Post by HexDecOctBin »

NewJazz wrote: post #19
datakan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No ones dead because Linux devs prompted a chat bot

Temperatures during heat waves are exceeding 50°C in India, causing tens thousands of deaths. The AI built-out is by far the fastest growing energy consumer in the world, and they’re being built with fossil fuels, or drawing green energy demand away from replacing the fossil fuels depended on by other industries.

I hate how this ostentatious caring for Indians is used to push personal political goals. Want to help with global warming? Reduce your consumption. Stop driving, stop eating non-local food, stop buying things made off-shores or with supply chains that require global shipping. Move to a much poorer country (or just a poorer neighbourhood of your country) and live the way people there live.

It seems like for much of Western world, Indians aren't really humans but a giant undifferentiated mass of temporarily animated bodies that are fit only as a canvas for one's own political paintwork.

Re: AI in Linux

#37

Post by stonogo »

logancbrown wrote: post #11

>The same process is pricing regular people out of the energy they need to power their air conditioner during those heat waves and the technology it enables is pushing them out of the labor market and into poverty. I don't see evidence this is true, and the critical mass of data centers is making electricity cheaper. Economies of scale -> more energy = bigger electric plants = cheaper energy. https://netchoice.org/ne…

Yeah, I wouldn't have that paper peer reviewed either. Garbage methodology.

Re: AI in Linux

#38

Post by ch71r22 »

berkes wrote: post #20
NewJazz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really disingenuous way to characterize the article (CO2 and global warming were much more of a focus than water, so your "or something" is doing a lot of work). Furthermore your comment ignores key arguments in the article, particularly the argument that contributors should not be forced to participate in AI-based ceremonies such as LLM code review that they may object to on personal ethical grounds.

> Pandora's box is open. And it's not Linux' task to close that, even if it could, which it cannot. How is that disingenuous? I agree that we should keep discussing the merits and dangers of AI-aided software development. Broad, so indeed also CO2 etc. But that discussion is not something that Linux should push forward. It's a discussion that should take place outside the context of specific projects and in the conte…

It's disingenuous because it's attacking something that the article didn't say. It didn't say "kernel devs should prompt less because it uses up water."

The real argument was that AI has many externalities that should be considered (climate change, water use, energy prices, putting people out of jobs) and that Linux, as a relevant and influential political actor, should engage with these topics. It's not even giving a final determination about what Linux should do, it's just disagreeing with Torvalds' total rejection of ethical arguments about AI.

Even if you believe that the technical merits outweigh the other costs, it seems at least reasonable to engage on those grounds. But Torvalds isn't doing that.

Also, simply stating that the "cat is out of the bag" and "Pandora's box is open" isn't really an argument. These are thought-terminating cliches; not logical arguments

Re: AI in Linux

#39

Post by 9x39 »

NewJazz wrote: post #19
datakan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No ones dead because Linux devs prompted a chat bot

Temperatures during heat waves are exceeding 50°C in India, causing tens thousands of deaths. The AI built-out is by far the fastest growing energy consumer in the world, and they’re being built with fossil fuels, or drawing green energy demand away from replacing the fossil fuels depended on by other industries.

https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by...

Share of global CO2:

China 33%

US 12%

India 8%

Russia 5%

Japan 3%

History didn't start in the last 12 months.

Re: AI in Linux

#40

Post by veeti »

tavoe wrote: post #22
throwuxiytayq wrote: post #2

tl;dr Kernel devs should prompt less because it uses up water or something. Repeat after me: you can't put the cat back in the bag. Pandora's box is open. Sucks, but you have to learn to live with the reality that most developers will use AI to write code from now on.

How do I know if comments like this come from a real person or a bot? Your suggestion that "anything popular cannot be morally wrong" is proposterous. It feels like you're trying to bait people into arguing with you in a way I associate with bot spam. But on the off change you're a real person - I will politely say - just because something is useful and popular doesn't meant it doesn't have negative externalities and…

So, instead of getting upset at the people taking a joyride on the gas guzzling Lamborghini or generating shitty slop memes on TikTok, you're upset the ambulance drivers are racing to help the world out.
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