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Beyond Greece and Rome

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Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#41

Post by skew-aberration »

wahern wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still think there is something we can call “Western Civilization" This is perhaps the least controversial statement in history. It's obviously true. Western Civilization is: 1) Greece 2) Rome, borrowing from the Greeks 3) Christianity taking over Rome 4) Germanic tribes adopting Roman law + the Christian religion 5) Protestantism 6) The Renaissance 7) The Enlightenment You can read Plato, and it all makes sense t…

I'm partially sympathetic to bashmelek's point of view. So much of the history and culture of Western civilization is actually rooted in the eastern Mediterranean. In the old world all writing can be traced back to Mesopotamia/Egypt and China. A surprising number of areas still use "ABCs" to refer to their alphabet. Much more than half of the old world by geography has a deeply connected written scholarly history. Du…

You're describing connections with regions which were on the borders of the western empires during antiquity. While there's abundant examples of cross pollination, there's also no doubt that Romans and Greeks identified themselves by their differences rather than similarities to those cultures.

Modern Mongolians share far more cultural similarities with the Hunnic and Turkic 'barbarians' that 'western civilizations' warred with. Many Mongolians still live nomadically! By contrast, modern Europeans long since abandoned their own traditional lifestyles which were practiced at the time - largely due to their colonization by and integration into the Roman empire. Russian identity has many western origins but their connection with Rome/Greece during antiquity are far thinner. Islam did not exist during that time either - so despite shared ancestor cultures, the Islamic empire emerged outside of the collapsing Roman empire and in direct competition to it.

Besides, Medieval era is a thousand years after 'antiquity' and was hugely influenced by the accelerating clash of east/west (spurred by the Mongol Empire) rather than pre-existing similarities.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#42

Post by toyg »

lstodd wrote: post #28
GolfPopper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, Rome borrowed from far more than the Greeks. Norse deities are popular, and seemingly more recognizable than classical Greek myth to those in North America with whom I've spoke about such things. Rome was taken over by a particular flavor of Christianity, which was changed by the Empire at least as much as it changed the Empire, and changed more by those who claimed it. (Christmas and Easter are not original…

> and a major thrust of contemporary politics is that the Enlightenment was not a positive thing. whoa, that's news to me. can you elaborate?

In a neo-oligarchic world, beheading rich aristocrats is a big no-no.

Also, glorifying reason has become very unpopular in a cultural context increasingly built around fairy tales (from Lord of the Rings to superheroes).

And of course, the neo-racist movements see egalité as a terrible, terrible thing.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#43

Post by laylower »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #32
bashmelek wrote: post #7

To be honest, though many historians today might disagree, I still think there is something we can call “Western Civilization,” even if it is a vague family of things that cannot be strictly defined. I know they are trying to correct for certain harmful attitudes out there, but articles like these feel to me to put the social message above all. It is especially when a certain perceived problematic attitude is the foc…

> the Celts I'm biased because I am Irish and the Celts are "our" ancient people (though not only ours, of course), but I wish they got more focus in popular culture. Newgrange predates the Egyptian Pyramids by a few hundred years. I wonder is it just that less remains of their society and so there is less to talk about? AIUI the insular Celts at least mostly built with wood, as opposed to the Romans and Greeks who b…

You are right. There has undoubtedly been a large a varied Celtic cultural element. The problem is the medium as you say. If it was not written and if it was not built in stone or metal, it cannot stand the test of time and historians, however willing, wouldn't be able to research fully.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#44

Post by wahern »

skew-aberration wrote: post #41
wahern wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm partially sympathetic to bashmelek's point of view. So much of the history and culture of Western civilization is actually rooted in the eastern Mediterranean. In the old world all writing can be traced back to Mesopotamia/Egypt and China. A surprising number of areas still use "ABCs" to refer to their alphabet. Much more than half of the old world by geography has a deeply connected written scholarly history. Du…

You're describing connections with regions which were on the borders of the western empires during antiquity. While there's abundant examples of cross pollination, there's also no doubt that Romans and Greeks identified themselves by their differences rather than similarities to those cultures. Modern Mongolians share far more cultural similarities with the Hunnic and Turkic 'barbarians' that 'western civilizations'…

What's the importance of Islam arising outside the Roman empire? It seems to me that to consider Islam outside the history of western civilization you must first define western civilization with that result in mind. It's tautological. For the first couple of centuries the spread of Christianity was also largely outside the Roman empire. Both Ethiopia and Armenia officially became Christian nations before Rome did (and both had become majority Christians earlier, meaning even earlier than the Roman empire itself.) Some Islamic practices, such as praying 5 times a day, were likely adopted from Christian practices (Protestants, and these days many Catholics, have largely forgotten the Liturgy of the Hours, but it was a widespread practice among Christians, and in Arabia in particular among lay Christians, not just clergy, who would lay down a rug, even in public, to perform their prayers). Do these facts somehow suggest a broken connection between Christianity and western civilization prior to it becoming widespread in Europe?

At least until the 11th century, Muslim empires considered themselves inheritors of Greek intellectual culture. This at a time when Europeans had lost Greek literature and even the Greek language (Rome literally started to have trouble conversing with Constantinople centuries earlier). Europeans seem to consider Islamic civilization as a mere temporary steward of Greek culture, conveniently keeping its literature extant until it could be rightly restored to Europeans.

Yes, the shared western cultural heritage in Mongolia itself is now extremely attenuated. But that's much less true in Persia or other areas closer to the epicenter of western civilization--i.e. the Levant--some of which are closer, geographically and otherwise, than most of continental Europe, especially Western Europe.

Europeans have a bias when it comes to their inheritance--they only see the historical paths that lead to themselves. (This is a universal truism that applies to every culture.) But there were many other branches from the same origins, and other cultures only see the paths that led to their selves. Until recently North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia had their own memories of a Greek cultural heritage, albeit intermixed with other influences (as is the case with Europeans). But unfortunately the predominance of modern European culture and historical narratives, and tacit internationalization of a unique European claim, seems to have erased that memory. But the heritage exists nonetheless and can be reclaimed, the same way Europeans reclaimed their Greek cultural heritage in the late Middle Ages.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#45

Post by hollerith »

toyg wrote: post #42
lstodd wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and a major thrust of contemporary politics is that the Enlightenment was not a positive thing. whoa, that's news to me. can you elaborate?

In a neo-oligarchic world, beheading rich aristocrats is a big no-no. Also, glorifying reason has become very unpopular in a cultural context increasingly built around fairy tales (from Lord of the Rings to superheroes). And of course, the neo-racist movements see egalité as a terrible, terrible thing.

Today I learned that some historians include the French Revolution in the Enlightenment. Here is the intro to the Wikipedia article:

>European historians traditionally dated its beginning with the death of Louis XIV of France in 1715 and its end with the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789. Many historians now date the end of the Enlightenment as the start of the 19th century, with the latest proposed year being the death of Immanuel Kant in 1804.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#46

Post by toyg »

hollerith wrote: post #45
toyg wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a neo-oligarchic world, beheading rich aristocrats is a big no-no. Also, glorifying reason has become very unpopular in a cultural context increasingly built around fairy tales (from Lord of the Rings to superheroes). And of course, the neo-racist movements see egalité as a terrible, terrible thing.

Today I learned that some historians include the French Revolution in the Enlightenment. Here is the intro to the Wikipedia article: >European historians traditionally dated its beginning with the death of Louis XIV of France in 1715 and its end with the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789. Many historians now date the end of the Enlightenment as the start of the 19th century, with the latest proposed year bein…

That's just a convenient technicality for historians. From wikipedia: "Most scholars use the last years of the century, often choosing the French Revolution or the beginning of the Napoleonic Wars (1804) as a convenient point in time with which to date the end of the Enlightenment."

The French Revolution is deeply grounded in Enlightenment principles.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#47

Post by skew-aberration »

wahern wrote: post #44
skew-aberration wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing connections with regions which were on the borders of the western empires during antiquity. While there's abundant examples of cross pollination, there's also no doubt that Romans and Greeks identified themselves by their differences rather than similarities to those cultures. Modern Mongolians share far more cultural similarities with the Hunnic and Turkic 'barbarians' that 'western civilizations'…

What's the importance of Islam arising outside the Roman empire? It seems to me that to consider Islam outside the history of western civilization you must first define western civilization with that result in mind. It's tautological. For the first couple of centuries the spread of Christianity was also largely outside the Roman empire. Both Ethiopia and Armenia officially became Christian nations before Rome did (an…

You're attacking a geographical interpretation of 'western' which I don't think is the usual meaning.

Rome and its successor states colonised western Europe over the course of ~2000 years. Hence the culture unique to the 'West' is in part that which was unique to the Romans. 'Western' doesn't so much describe culture which was indigenous to western European countries (much of which is lost) nor is it a catch all term for cultures which were influenced by the Romans to a lesser degree. It describes the cultures most heavily influenced by the colonisation of the Western Roman Empire and its successors over the longest period of time.

If Western Europe had been colonised by the Islamic Empire (in the way that the Eastern Roman empire was) then 'Western' would indeed include Islamic culture.

Britons and Danes were not Roman, their culture in antiquity was very different, yet they were gradually influence/coerced into adopting many of its cultural practices. Modern Britain and Denmark are therefore 'Western', even though e.g Persia had far more in common with the Romans/Greeks at the time. The culture of Turkish people is heavily influenced by ancient Greek and Roman colonisation, and hence they are 'more western' than other areas in the near east. Yet later conquests by Arabs and Mongols bought a much more diverse set of religious and cultural practices. Similarly, regions like Greece itself and Southern Spain have been colonised by eastern empires, and are somewhat 'less western', though they were later reintegrated into the 'West'.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#48

Post by hollerith »

toyg wrote: post #46
hollerith wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today I learned that some historians include the French Revolution in the Enlightenment. Here is the intro to the Wikipedia article: >European historians traditionally dated its beginning with the death of Louis XIV of France in 1715 and its end with the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789. Many historians now date the end of the Enlightenment as the start of the 19th century, with the latest proposed year bein…

That's just a convenient technicality for historians. From wikipedia: "Most scholars use the last years of the century, often choosing the French Revolution or the beginning of the Napoleonic Wars (1804) as a convenient point in time with which to date the end of the Enlightenment." The French Revolution is deeply grounded in Enlightenment principles.

For admirers of the Enlightenment, it's more than just a convenient technicality to want to avoid including in the Enlightenment a period a political chaos during which about a million people were arrested and about 30-50,000 were killed -- most with very little in the way of due-process rights.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#49

Post by toyg »

hollerith wrote: post #48
toyg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just a convenient technicality for historians. From wikipedia: "Most scholars use the last years of the century, often choosing the French Revolution or the beginning of the Napoleonic Wars (1804) as a convenient point in time with which to date the end of the Enlightenment." The French Revolution is deeply grounded in Enlightenment principles.

For admirers of the Enlightenment, it's more than just a convenient technicality to want to avoid including in the Enlightenment a period a political chaos during which about a million people were arrested and about 30-50,000 were killed -- most with very little in the way of due-process rights.

To quote an Italian meme, "yes, but they also did a few bad things".

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#50

Post by GolfPopper »

lstodd wrote: post #28
GolfPopper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, Rome borrowed from far more than the Greeks. Norse deities are popular, and seemingly more recognizable than classical Greek myth to those in North America with whom I've spoke about such things. Rome was taken over by a particular flavor of Christianity, which was changed by the Empire at least as much as it changed the Empire, and changed more by those who claimed it. (Christmas and Easter are not original…

> and a major thrust of contemporary politics is that the Enlightenment was not a positive thing. whoa, that's news to me. can you elaborate?

"The conservatives who want to undo the Enlightenment"[1]

And from Wikipedia[2], "The Dark Enlightenment, also called the Neo-Reactionary movement (abbreviated to NRx), is an anti-democratic, anti-egalitarian, and reactionary philosophical and political movement. It can be understood as a reaction against values and ideologies associated with Enlightenment, advocating for a return to traditional societal constructs and forms of government, such as absolute monarchism and cameralism."

United States Vice-President J.D. Vance reached political prominence largely via the support of prominent anti-Enlightenment conservative Rod Dreher. [3]

1. https://archive.is/9AFzR#selection-439.0-439.52

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment#Influence_i...

3. https://archive.is/8KyJF

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