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Beyond Greece and Rome

aeon.co

31–40 of 61 posts

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#31
The main reason for our "Western" societies to focus to a greater degree specifically in these two civilizations is collective rule.

These two civilizations produced democracy and republic, the foundations of our current political system, additionally more than half of Europes legal systems are founded on roman law. Their histories are very relevant to our modern experience.

We should of course study other civilizations, but the truth of the matter is if you look into Chinese history you will find 3 millennia of imperial rule and absolute, divine mandate monarchy, fascinating but less relevant for citizens living in modern republics than say the 50 or so years before Romes transformation into a monarchy.

Greece and Rome give us facsimiles of our current political systems, there are things to be learned from studying them.

PS: Even Imperial Rome is very relevant, because as I said, it has to a great degree shaped our current rights and legal environment and as monarchies go it is unique in that the only legitimacy or any ruler was the peoples approval of their rule. i.e. it was the most democratic of the monarchies in history.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#32

To be honest, though many historians today might disagree, I still think there is something we can call “Western Civilization,” even if it is a vague family of things that cannot be strictly defined. I know they are trying to correct for certain harmful attitudes out there, but articles like these feel to me to put the social message above all. It is especially when a certain perceived problematic attitude is the foc…

> the Celts

I'm biased because I am Irish and the Celts are "our" ancient people (though not only ours, of course), but I wish they got more focus in popular culture. Newgrange predates the Egyptian Pyramids by a few hundred years. I wonder is it just that less remains of their society and so there is less to talk about? AIUI the insular Celts at least mostly built with wood, as opposed to the Romans and Greeks who built with stone. Still, part of me would love to see a Hollywood blockbuster made out of the Táin Bó Cúailnge.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#33
post #9

To be honest, though many historians today might disagree, I still think there is something we can call “Western Civilization,” even if it is a vague family of things that cannot be strictly defined. I know they are trying to correct for certain harmful attitudes out there, but articles like these feel to me to put the social message above all. It is especially when a certain perceived problematic attitude is the foc…

> I still think there is something we can call “Western Civilization" This is perhaps the least controversial statement in history. It's obviously true. Western Civilization is: 1) Greece 2) Rome, borrowing from the Greeks 3) Christianity taking over Rome 4) Germanic tribes adopting Roman law + the Christian religion 5) Protestantism 6) The Renaissance 7) The Enlightenment You can read Plato, and it all makes sense t…

Medieval Europe absorbed a great deal of philosophy, mathematics, medicine and science through the Islamic world. Including from Arabic translations of and comments on Ancient Greek texts. Meaning even some of that Greek lineage was mediated and influenced by the Islamic world. And all of which had a significant influence on the Renaissance.

Similarly, the Greeks are thought to have borrowed more than a little from Ancient Egypt and other neighboring civilizations.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#34
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> christianity made greco-roman culture relatable to most of the west. I find this statement confusing. Hellenistic culture was the West. All Western culture since, including Rome, has imitated it. Christianity didn't make Greco-Roman culture accessible to the West. It made monotheistic, Hebrew/Judean culture accessible to Rome (primarily by making it less harsh and less monotheistic), and then spread onward to the…

Could you expand on why you think Christianity made Hebrew/Judean culture less monotheistic? Also, surely you would concede that scholars who sought to rediscover ancient greek/roman literature through a Christian lens in the 15th/16th centuries played a big role in making it accessible to the Christian world?

Catholic and Orthodox churches have a large body of saints each of which is associated with domains of life, people make offerings to the saints idols (paintings and statues) as you would in a polytheistic culture, small golden and silver trinkets usually. These practices were originally polytheistic practices that merely switched context with minimal changes.

Of course sacrifices which was both a Judaic and typical polytheistic ritual was dropped from both Hebrew and Christian practice.

Oaths is another one, oaths are a very polytheistic tradition, you swear to do something with the gods as the arbiter and the judge of you actions. I don't believe Hebrew tradition is very big on taking oaths, I think they actually forbid it, I may be wrong.

As another example the Pope is a pontiff, that is a roman religious office predating Christianity.

Point is when Christianity spread in the empire it evolved to include a lot of the religious practice of the people of the empire.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#35

> The de facto equation of ‘ancient history’ with ancient Mediterranean history, at least in most of the Anglosphere, has endured for many generations. But we are on the cusp of a dramatic shift in perspective that is producing a much bigger, broader and more exciting view of ‘the ancient world’. Archeology is more difficult than reading. The civilizations which left a literary corpus (oral or written) will have more…

>> christianity made greco-roman culture relatable to most of the west. I find this statement confusing. Hellenistic culture was the West. All Western culture since, including Rome, has imitated it. Christianity didn't make Greco-Roman culture accessible to the West. It made monotheistic, Hebrew/Judean culture accessible to Rome (primarily by making it less harsh and less monotheistic), and then spread onward to the…

[deleted]

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#36
post #9

To be honest, though many historians today might disagree, I still think there is something we can call “Western Civilization,” even if it is a vague family of things that cannot be strictly defined. I know they are trying to correct for certain harmful attitudes out there, but articles like these feel to me to put the social message above all. It is especially when a certain perceived problematic attitude is the foc…

> I still think there is something we can call “Western Civilization" This is perhaps the least controversial statement in history. It's obviously true. Western Civilization is: 1) Greece 2) Rome, borrowing from the Greeks 3) Christianity taking over Rome 4) Germanic tribes adopting Roman law + the Christian religion 5) Protestantism 6) The Renaissance 7) The Enlightenment You can read Plato, and it all makes sense t…

I'm partially sympathetic to bashmelek's point of view. So much of the history and culture of Western civilization is actually rooted in the eastern Mediterranean. In the old world all writing can be traced back to Mesopotamia/Egypt and China. A surprising number of areas still use "ABCs" to refer to their alphabet. Much more than half of the old world by geography has a deeply connected written scholarly history. During Antiquity Greek culture itself extended much further east than west. Iconic Hindu and Buddhist art, particularly statuary, is Greek in origin. The center of Christianity was still east of Europe, or at least much further east than Rome, into the Middle Ages. There's a fascinating account by a circa 12th century papal emissary sent to the capital of the Khan Empire in Mongolia on a diplomatic and proselytizing mission. When reaching the Khan's court he found an entire native Christian contingent, and rather than listen to the emissary's preaching (Christianity wasn't new to him, and he wasn't inclined to take it up, though a sizable fraction of others had), Güyük Khan had him debate Christian theology with the existing Christian council in his court, partly for his own entertainment. The existence of these Christians caught the emissary by surprise, because the history of Christianity in the East had been forgotten by the Europeans. A few decades later, the Mongol Christian wife of Hulagu Khan was instrumental in securing the safety of Christians during the Sack of Baghdad (and IIRC she even had commissioned, or tried to have commissioned, the construction of a new Christian cathedral in Baghdad. But I might be thinking of another, much later Mongol Christian empress in China.)

All of which is to say, a huge portion of the old world can claim "western civilization" as an inheritance, unless we narrowly define "western civilization" as being rooted sometime in the past millennia (and then ignore the the effect of European colonialism in bringing many other areas into the fold, some for the second time). And that's before delving into pre-history and the influence of Central Asian steppe culture, from which we get Western civilization's shared Indo-European linguistic and, arguably, even religious history (see, e.g., links between Judeo-Christian and Dharmic religions via Zoroastrianism).

Which isn't to say modern European culture has the same relationship as everywhere else touched by Mediterranean culture, or that Renaissance and Enlightenment ideals aren't important, pivotal contributions to modern "western" culture. History has attenuated, obscured, and partially erased the historical interconnectedness. But relative to, e.g., East Asian or Mesomerican culture, there's a strong argument that everybody from the Hindu Kush to Portugal, from Ethiopia to Moscow, have a deeply shared cultural history and inheritance and are rightly called "Western" in a meaningful sense.

I don't object to the existence of a western civilization, I just object to Europeans claiming it as a unique, or even uniquely formative, inheritance. When I read about Hindu nationalist claims to a third emergence of writing in the Old World, it seems they're so passionate only because there's the tacit belief that they don't have the same stake in western civilization as Europeans; that they're not otherwise equal heirs to a rich western culture. But they are, IMO.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#37
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> christianity made greco-roman culture relatable to most of the west. I find this statement confusing. Hellenistic culture was the West. All Western culture since, including Rome, has imitated it. Christianity didn't make Greco-Roman culture accessible to the West. It made monotheistic, Hebrew/Judean culture accessible to Rome (primarily by making it less harsh and less monotheistic), and then spread onward to the…

Could you expand on why you think Christianity made Hebrew/Judean culture less monotheistic? Also, surely you would concede that scholars who sought to rediscover ancient greek/roman literature through a Christian lens in the 15th/16th centuries played a big role in making it accessible to the Christian world?

Christianity is more idolatrous than the ancient Vedic religion, and practically polytheistic due to the veneration of Christ's mother and saints. I find this parallel amusing. Christianity made of Judaism and old testment exactly what Hinduism made of the Vedas.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#38
Relatedly, here's a very recent video explaining a Buddha statue that was found in a temple of the Egyptian goddess Isis, installed by the local Buddhist and Hindu communities, carved by a Roman artisan, and dedicated in a message in both Greek and Sanskrit.

https://youtu.be/Sa_LhZrDjhk?is=cCmiQfXZG7HZpByT

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#39
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> christianity made greco-roman culture relatable to most of the west. I find this statement confusing. Hellenistic culture was the West. All Western culture since, including Rome, has imitated it. Christianity didn't make Greco-Roman culture accessible to the West. It made monotheistic, Hebrew/Judean culture accessible to Rome (primarily by making it less harsh and less monotheistic), and then spread onward to the…

Could you expand on why you think Christianity made Hebrew/Judean culture less monotheistic? Also, surely you would concede that scholars who sought to rediscover ancient greek/roman literature through a Christian lens in the 15th/16th centuries played a big role in making it accessible to the Christian world?

Other posters' comments about saints slotting into the places of pagan deities are right. But even more fundamentally, from a Jewish (or, in fact, Muslim) perspective, the Trinity is a form of polytheism, and depictions of Jesus amount to idol worship. Both of those things made Christianity far more appealing and familiar to the Romans than the original desert religion it sprang from, with one invisible abstract God represented by an unspeakable word.

Re: Beyond Greece and Rome

#40
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand on why you think Christianity made Hebrew/Judean culture less monotheistic? Also, surely you would concede that scholars who sought to rediscover ancient greek/roman literature through a Christian lens in the 15th/16th centuries played a big role in making it accessible to the Christian world?

Catholic and Orthodox churches have a large body of saints each of which is associated with domains of life, people make offerings to the saints idols (paintings and statues) as you would in a polytheistic culture, small golden and silver trinkets usually. These practices were originally polytheistic practices that merely switched context with minimal changes. Of course sacrifices which was both a Judaic and typical…

Edit: Although if you think about it holy communion is very sacrifice like in its mechanics.

Typically in a Greek sacrifice a food item I think typically some sort of animal protein was dedicated to the gods cooked on site and then split amongst the attendees, the gods are satisfied with the smoke as far as I understand.

Holy communion has very similar mechanics, food item then a ritual involving god, and then communally consumed.

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