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Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

citizens-initiative.europa.eu

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Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#201

Post by fyredge »

nate_meurer wrote: post #174
yorwba wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time I had police knocking at my door, it was a lot more than two, and they were readying their battering ram when I opened, and then immediately swarmed me and told me to sit down, and then I just explained and they realized their warrant was for a different address and they left. It was scary in the moment, but I never had a gun pointed at me and I wasn't even touched, so overall it left me with a rather p…

> giving them more power doesn't look like a slippery slope straight to dystopia. This only makes sense if you have no concept of "future", wherein different, less reasonable people can gain power. This should be especially obvious in Germany, where an adversarial relationship with the state can easily be had by merely criticizing it.

The solution then seems to be holding people in power accountable, no?

Digital ID or not, the situation won't improve until we get actual representation that works for the people.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#202

Post by adiabatichottub »

intrasight wrote: post #197
adiabatichottub wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a different game. A web site is much easier to instrument than a physical place. Say I go to a bar, I show my ID to the bouncer. My identity isn't recorded (unless they scan it with a device that records the scan data). Maybe they have cameras, my image isn't immediately associated with my identity, somebody would have to do a bit of work to connect the two. Maybe I pay with a credit card, now my name is st…

It may be a right you want but it's not a right you have. There is no need to track access beyond what is already tracked.

I consider such rights to be my natural rights, regardless of statute. This is a product of my personal ethics and philosophy. In that sense, it is a right that I have. Whether I can successfully exercise that right without proscription is what I am concerned about.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#203

Post by spaqin »

hart_russell wrote: post #171
matchstickman23 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what?

I truly believe unfettered access to endless scroll dopamine is bad for adults, but even more terrible for a developing mind. It reduces attention span, increases anxiety, etc. Pushing the onus on parents for healthy internet consumption is probably not effective because most families have both parents working jobs and can't be on top of their kids 24/7. Now... how to effectively address this problem without introduc…

We had a world without the endless scroll just a decade ago. You don't need a totalitarian surveillance state to regain control over that, nor do you need perfect enforcement - just like illegal betting sites are a problem, but a marginal one.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#204

Post by left-struck »

urbandw311er wrote: post #169

The physical world has age checks when kids attempt to enter a premises with dangerous or unsuitable content - eg bars, casinos, strip joints. These seem largely accepted as a good thing. Why do so many seem to feel that the same protections are so outrageous when applied in the virtual world? Honest question, I can see both sides.

Can’t speak for everyone but for me if you start talking about the age thing you’re already missing the point.

But if we have to talk about age, if I want to buy alcohol in my country at least, I don’t need to show my id because I don’t look under 18. If I did look under 18 the shop keeper would just quickly do what amounts to a boolean check, old enough or not?

Regardless of the intensions of the people who are pushing this (which we can’t know for sure and likely varies), the fact is that there’s so much surface area for abuse here.

You’re asking everyone to submit their id in what could be a permanent way, there’s no way for me to know what you’re doing with my id, or how long you’re keeping it for. Unlike the in person example, I cannot just take the physical copy back.

Now you might be tempted to mention that at some venues they scan your physical ID and your face. Yeah, I don’t like that either. Just because there’s precedence doesn’t make it right.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#205

Post by Someone100 »

b112 wrote: post #136
atmosx wrote: post #105

There is a surprising amount of engineers who don’t understand what’s happening. So they deal with it as if it’s a funny thing… yeah if two police officers come knocking your door with hard data, you will just explain… and yeah, I mean kids, can bypass it… right? Wrong. This is not 1995. They can make very harsh laws and they can make it borderline impossible to bypass should some authority choose to do so. The dange…

Here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49080929 There is discussion about LLMs, models, CSAM, undressing people with AI, and posting those images to places. No handy wavy stuff, makes this problem go away due to filtering at creation. That's because, open models are a thing. So you either ban all open models, or maybe make it a crime to publish uncensored models, or you punish what individuals do on the internet…

Who cares if they undress people with AI. Its slop and not worth restricting liberties over it.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#206

Post by Someone100 »

urbandw311er wrote: post #169

The physical world has age checks when kids attempt to enter a premises with dangerous or unsuitable content - eg bars, casinos, strip joints. These seem largely accepted as a good thing. Why do so many seem to feel that the same protections are so outrageous when applied in the virtual world? Honest question, I can see both sides.

Parenting shouldnt be outsourced to the state.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#207

Post by rypskar »

urbandw311er wrote: post #169

The physical world has age checks when kids attempt to enter a premises with dangerous or unsuitable content - eg bars, casinos, strip joints. These seem largely accepted as a good thing. Why do so many seem to feel that the same protections are so outrageous when applied in the virtual world? Honest question, I can see both sides.

When someone need to age check me in real life they make a quick look at me and decide they don't have to check any id. On steam I had to put in my age to see the page for GTA, even when being logged in with an account that is older than 18 years. It is a reason why it is Meta and the like that lobbies the most for age controls, they want more information about everyone

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#208

Post by shuwix »

nemomarx wrote: post #108
atmosx wrote: post #105

There is a surprising amount of engineers who don’t understand what’s happening. So they deal with it as if it’s a funny thing… yeah if two police officers come knocking your door with hard data, you will just explain… and yeah, I mean kids, can bypass it… right? Wrong. This is not 1995. They can make very harsh laws and they can make it borderline impossible to bypass should some authority choose to do so. The dange…

what's the current solution that's impossible for kids to bypass with a borrowed or stolen id, say? I don't see any proposals yet that will actually work for what they say they'll do.

Yup. Everything can be bypassed by kids as they have time, motivation and learn new stuff with blink of an eye.

Just like we once were.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#209

Post by hnav »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #196
hnav wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OHTTP, VPNs, proxies, tor, privacy hardened browsers at least attempt to hide you, if providers are "required" to ID you that all becomes moot.

So having established one would have to institute I'm-hiding-from-at-least-two-sovereign-governments-that-are-actively-hunting-me levels of OPSEC to even stand a chance of avoiding being thoroughly fingerprinted I'm fairly confident in my point is proven here. I don't see anyone proposing to gut Meta and Google's business models, ban data brokerages, or any of a myriad other possible things that would at least in the…

You're attacking a strawman, there are definitely alternatives such as mandating a protocol for describing content that parent-controlled content policies in user agents would key off of. I mean even today you can just ban instagram on your kid's phone. Regarding futility of trying to preserve privacy, I'm not sure if you're aware that Apple doesn't have much of a standalone service business and it's widely deploying OHTTP, anti-fingerprinting, etc. Obviously they moderate their efforts to not push too far, too fast, yet fingerpriting a mobile user on iOS is not trivial.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#210

Post by scotty79 »

DangitBobby wrote: post #198
Geezus_42 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's to stop an adult from using the "kids only" hardware?

Nothing. It won't matter on age appropriate sites.

So age appropriate sites could not have any private communication functionalities.
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