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Pacing the frontier

pacingthefrontier.com

71–80 of 216 posts

Re: Pacing the frontier

#71
post #50

The historic analog most befitting AI are weapons. It provides an advantage to companies and governments in creating weapons, in surveilling people and thus gaining leverage over individuals, in controlling what individuals can do or cannot stop doing. It thus follows the laws of weapons control - the more restrictions are threatened to be imposed, the more even the smallest actors will fight to get more of it. They…

> only approximate solution is to prevent any restrictions on the use of it - a-la-2nd amendment

Not even in 'Murica do we have anything close to no restrictions.

You can't buy your own EMP or nuke, and even warring governments have been surprisingly reserved in building (at least to public knowledge) biological weapons.

Re: Pacing the frontier

#72
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For all I know (I don't know a lot about biology), it's possible to develop a virus that spreads as easily as measles, but has the lethality and long induction period of HIV. If that's true, and if LLMs would make it easy to develop such a virus, I see how no-guardrails LLMs could be truly disastrous. This is the specific example in the latest doomerist wave I have so much trouble with: by what mechanism is an LLM…

> by what mechanism is an LLM going to help you design and manufacture a novel bioweapon? We know they cannot do spatial reasoning, and if they were this good at bio stuff then drug research would be absolutely out of control. I guess my question would be how good the LLM is at writing a program that is good at spatial reasoning? If it can create a valid test suite from existing art on the subject it might be able to…

Have you tried to make LLMs do that? Unless it's implementing previously developed algorithms they screw it up so repeatedly it's incredible. (And even when it is clearly defined it's obviously their weak spot).

The "rapid self improvement" is going to be ever further down the LLM rabbit hole where brute force, tenacity, and symbol juggling beat having a reasonable model of anything else. This is enormously more likely to recommend improvements to its own architecture than to develop a sudden grasp of molecular biology.

There isn't an AI bubble, but I'm increasingly convinced there is an LLM bubble, and that this noise is to do with preventing people noticing that before they've managed to pull something else out of the oven.

Re: Pacing the frontier

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many otherwise smart engineers, overrepresented on HN, have this weird mental block where they fail to take AI progress seriously. I think it's a fear that their status-defining skill could be commodified, so they adopt a mental framework that aims to dismantle the seeming legitimacy of any genuine leap in AI progress as some sort of mirage

Not just engineers - I see people attributing it to strong priors that nothing happens but in my opinion it's more some form of psychological defense mechanism against understanding there will be an intelligence vastly superior to humans which is a deeply uncomfortable thought (to many).

“Nothing ever happens” is like “you can’t beat the market.” It’s basically tautologically the strongest predictive model that we can have. A corollary is that something may happen, but it won’t be what you think.

Re: Pacing the frontier

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many otherwise smart engineers, overrepresented on HN, have this weird mental block where they fail to take AI progress seriously. I think it's a fear that their status-defining skill could be commodified, so they adopt a mental framework that aims to dismantle the seeming legitimacy of any genuine leap in AI progress as some sort of mirage

Not just engineers - I see people attributing it to strong priors that nothing happens but in my opinion it's more some form of psychological defense mechanism against understanding there will be an intelligence vastly superior to humans which is a deeply uncomfortable thought (to many).

Why should I trust these randos instead of Claude? I know Claude. I would hope Claude is smarter than whoever wants to make rules about my use of Claude. Replace Claude with Kimi, etc. if needed.

I don’t find a petition from people I don’t know who don’t care about me more compelling than my own direct experience with these models.

Re: Pacing the frontier

#75

Anyone serious about this should participate in pacing the frontier by quitting their job so as to not potentially contribute to the problematic progress. Be the change you want to see! Curious how that isn't what happens.

Some of us considered seeking one of these jobs and decided not to. Some have quit (e.g. Hinton, OpenAI people after OpenAI reneged on safety commitments). Now you're getting this message from people who passed the previous filters. If you think a brake is indicated and not just easing up on the accelerator, you need collective action as the statement said.

Re: Pacing the frontier

#76

Anyone serious about this should participate in pacing the frontier by quitting their job so as to not potentially contribute to the problematic progress. Be the change you want to see! Curious how that isn't what happens.

Some of us considered seeking one of these jobs and decided not to. Some have quit (e.g. Hinton, OpenAI people after OpenAI reneged on safety commitments). Now you're getting this message from people who passed the previous filters. If you think a brake is indicated and not just easing up on the accelerator, you need collective action as the statement said.

> you need collective action

Come on, go on strike then! Have a week of protest and picket the offices in SFO. Let's see what happens.

(I'm aware that's not quite what you meant, but it is the classic meaning of that phrase).

Re: Pacing the frontier

#77
post #26

The HN discourse on this subject is incredibly discouraging to me. It's completely nonconstructive. I take the pace of AI development seriously. All of my friends who work at AI Labs take it seriously. It's very easy to make lazy, shallow dismissals that leaders like Dario/Demis/Sam are acting purely out of self-interest. If AI does pose biological risk, or could destabilize geopolitics, or even just poses economic r…

I know a lot more about chemistry and physics than I know about biology, so biological risk is still at least a "maybe" reason to be worried about model safety for me. I don't worry about other weapons of mass destruction developed with LLM assistance. Nuclear weapons are already controlled much more with political pressure and the physical difficulty of e.g. enriching uranium than they are controlled by secret-keepi…

This experiment has been run, and even the biological stuff is far fetched.

I've written about this before, but the issue is that these people have worked with computers their entire lives, and they keep projecting outwards from there.

The 20th century was dominated by mad scientists (mostly Teller) and generals (bombs away LeMay), but one thing that I respect about them is that they didn't just sit and guess about probable futures. They sat down and actually ran experiments.

For example, in the 1960s, there was a whole generation of people asking "who's next?" after the US, USSR, the UK and France had made The Bomb. And instead of just gesticulating wildly and trying to keep fighting the losing fight of "classify everything, admit nothing," Teller found three smart, young physicists (postdocs) with 0 nuclear weapons experience, and indeed 0 weapons experience, and ran an experiment called the Nth Country Experiment, where they were were asked to make a design for a working bomb.

After 2+ years, they were able to. And so proliferation work shifted from controlling knowledge about the technology and the technology itself to materials.

Something similar was done with bioweapons via Project Bacchus, where they gave actual bioweapons experts carte blanche to set up a secret bioweapons lab with COTS equipment. They succeeded. This was in the early 2000s.

This then led to surveillance of specific purchase combinations and equipment. Because tbh, most weapons of mass destruction are commodity technology. Nuclear weapons are 80+ years old. Chemical weapons are over a century old. Bioweapons are god knows how much older. And it's not the knowledge of these things that matter, but intent, materials, and the ability to create them.

Just because you know something about a thing doesn't mean that you're capable of doing that thing.

Let's take bioweapons.

They keep comparing wet work in a lab to writing code on a computer.

When you screw up an exploit, you fail to execute the exploit. Famously, just like software's near zero marginal cost of distribution, the marginal cost of failure is nearly zero.

You can screw up an infinite number of times on your way to a successful exploit.

If you screw up with lethal agents in a lab? You die.

Here's a non-exhaustive list,

    Dora Lush died after accidentally pricking her finger with a needle containing lethal scrub typhus while attempting to develop a vaccine for the disease

   A 23-year-old laboratory assistant at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, was infected with smallpox after observing the harvesting of live smallpox virus from eggs without isolation cabinets at that time. The assistant was hospitalised and before being isolated, she infected two visitors to a patient in an adjacent bed, both of whom died. They in turn infected a nurse, who survived

   Ebola laboratory infection by the accidental stick of contaminated needle in the United Kingdom

   Researcher Nikolai Ustinov was lethally infected with the Marburg virus after accidentally pricking himself with a syringe used for inoculation of guinea pigs. The accident occurred at the Scientific-Production Association "Vektor" (today the State Research Center of Virology and Biotechnology "Vektor") in Koltsovo, USSR (today Russia).
"lethally infected with the Marburg virus after accidentally pricking himself"

Anything lethal enough to kill other humans is lethal enough to kill you.

And if you don't know what you're doing — and for this argument they're talking about people who have to ask a LLM "how do I spanish flu?," the number of ways you will die far outnumber the ways you can succeed.

And this, of course, doesn't even cover the cost of equipment, the precursors, sourcing the highly specific materials needed, then setting the equipment up... etc.

The same is true for the Bosch-Haber / Haber-Bosch process, which famously made WW1 possible. Every HS'er learns about the process and the steps. Steps that were classified once upon a time and were the subject of negotiation at the Versailles.

Does that mean a HS'er (or any adult) can set up an experiment that works at 177 times the pressure of the Earth's atmosphere to do anything at any scale without significant infrastructure and help?

No, it doesn't work like that.

The people who can do this are domain experts, and they've been able to do this with COTS stuff since the 1990s, at the very least, for a price of around $2M. And those people don't need a LLM to tell them what to do. In fact, they're the exact people who'll have access to unrestricted versions of these LLMs.

And from a security perspective, I would bet good money that flooding the FBI's tip line with junk about every teenager trying to learn "what be a mitochondria" does more harm to the effort of finding people who could be planning such a thing than it helps. It takes more resources to go through the mass of false negatives that have now been created as matter of policy.

These experiments have been run. And we can run them again.

The fictional scenario of someone learning how bioweapons work and conjuring up a plague isn't real and it hurts humanity as a whole to impede the sciences over it.

Because what someone can flail around in / do is learn about immunology / try to "cure cancer" with a LLM and hopefully get started on a long career in medicine. Or, a discovery that matters.

Because in those cases, if and when they do end up at a lab, screwing up doesn't mean death. Just tons of wasted time (and money). And they will fail / screw up. Just look at literally every undergrad in any lab and the expensive messes they create.

Re: Pacing the frontier

#78
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an application of the "Tragedy of the commons": One person stopping to push the frontier just means that this person will lose their job, the frontier will be pushed by the others. The solution is to push for a binding rule instead that will make everyone slow down in the racing towards artificial superintelligence.

And this is how we absolve people of all personal responsibility. Such companies would not pay people that well if they were so fungible. There is no such possible binding rule either, a point that is so obvious that any smart person claiming otherwise is clearly up to something.

Personal responsibility is a difficult concept for be to apply to massive efforts like this. When there’s one person and you can talk to them personal responsibility is the number one topic. When you’re talking about a multi-trillion dollar bet and hundreds of thousands of people it doesn’t make sense anymore.

Same logic goes for other common issues where personal responsibility is lauded. Obesity - real solutions are policy and medicine. Abortion - education and contraceptives.

Re: Pacing the frontier

#79
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they lazy dismissals? Or a simple observation that LLM scaling is hitting diminishing returns way way short of AGI. If the claim is (1) AGI coming and (2) we should so something about AGI, wouldn't it be smart to confirm (1) before worrying about (2)? Especially if certain companies have trillions of dollars of valuation that depend on society as a whole believing (1)?

i think part of the problem, though, is that we've already hit many of the warning signs that AGI is coming, and people have kept moving the goalposts. if you were to tell someone from ten years that there's an ai that has passed the turing test and has made novel mathematical discoveries, i think many would say AGI is already here.

The old observation that people tend to define AI as whatever computers can't do yet is as true as ever. It's getting a bit absurd, moving from demanding "general intelligence" to replicating human cognitive phenomenology (the experience of cognitive activities). Yet LLMs can already somewhat (confabulation-prone) introspect their own "internal unspoken thoughts" in their residual streams, quite fascinating.

Re: Pacing the frontier

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot more about chemistry and physics than I know about biology, so biological risk is still at least a "maybe" reason to be worried about model safety for me. I don't worry about other weapons of mass destruction developed with LLM assistance. Nuclear weapons are already controlled much more with political pressure and the physical difficulty of e.g. enriching uranium than they are controlled by secret-keepi…

> ...I see how no-guardrails LLMs could be truly disastrous... by all accounts this is what's what because of how... > You can do CRISPR in your kitchen. .. and because of the same dynamic we see occurring in cybersec. If you're good enough at cybersec, but not good-good at specific skillsets like offensive, then LLMs and a comp sci degree makes you quite capable in the ways that count. This is a fact, full stop. If…

    If you're good enough at cybersec, but not good-good at specific skillsets like offensive, then LLMs and a comp sci degree makes you quite capable in the ways that count. This is a fact, full stop.
Wet work in a lab isn't the same as writing code on a computer.

If you screw up with a lethal pathogen in a lab, you die.

If you screw up with code on a computer, you go get lunch.

They're not the same.

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