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Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

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Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#61

Post by epistasis »

glitchc wrote: post #46
epistasis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the banng of HFCs is a pretty good example of collective action. Also, it's important to realize that climate change, as we best understand it right now, is not a "or perish" type of situation. RCP8.5 has now been soundly eliminated from the set of potential climate trajectories, so what we're left with is a question of 1) how much mass migration will be forced upon the world, with concomitant wars and s…

No matter how poor you think the US is, the average person in the rest of the world is indeed poorer.

I'm not understanding how this observation relates to my comment, in any way.

Renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels. The areas that are just developing widespread electricity now will do it far cleaner than the US did, skipping the lower development stages of electricity and jumping directly into the future, if that's what you're saying. But I'm having trouble understanding what you mean.

Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#62

Post by t0mpr1c3 »

toddmorey wrote: post #4

Have we ever as a species successfully changed our behavior on a scale needed to address something like climate change and underwater oxygen loss? What would be the closest “we’ve got to change or perish” moment we’ve successfully navigated?

The only truly global intervention I can think of whose impact might be discernible over geological timescales is the ban on testing nuclear weapons.

Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#63

Post by chaostheory »

toddmorey wrote: post #4

Have we ever as a species successfully changed our behavior on a scale needed to address something like climate change and underwater oxygen loss? What would be the closest “we’ve got to change or perish” moment we’ve successfully navigated?

Well, we inadvertently stopped having as much children. That should help, but our current system economic systems can’t handle falling birthrates

Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#64

Post by gerdesj »

rolph wrote: post #52
flockonus wrote: post #36

Oxigen is ALSO, and perhaps in vast quantities produced at the bottom of the ocean, by lumps of metal that react with sea water (aka Dark Oxygen). Interestingly, there are now massive marine harvesting operations targeting that very ore. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-discove...

it wont matter how much oxygen you try to dissolve, if the temperature is too high you wont hold enough dissolved oxygen to allow aquatic life. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_...

Now look up the temperatures within the water column. I don't see any notes about pressure. Temperature is one axis ...

Your charts show several "green house gases" and with some squinting and handwaving could be used to "prove" that the seas are mopping up those gases and saving the planet.

I used to keep tropical fish and they somehow managed to survive in water temperatures way higher than the open seas. In an aquarium it is the surface water area (not volume) that generally decides how many fish can live within it. The surface area determines how much oxygen can be absorbed, Oxygenating plants help and agitating the surface increases the surface area - it does not "mix in" oxygen.

My point is: That's all bollocks.

Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#65

Post by t0mpr1c3 »

anonymousiam wrote: post #56
glitchc wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how poor you think the US is, the average person in the rest of the world is indeed poorer.

True, but most people don't think about why that is the case. They'll blame slavery (abolished over 160 years ago), or the "exploitation" by capitalists (that produce wealth for all). Some may claim that the US has more natural resources, but The US is rich because of the freedoms and rights that our citizens have. Look at the poverty of the Soviet Union or Mao's China, or in Cuba today. I cannot for the life of me u…

Let's consider the economies of Communist nations. I suggest we take into account a bit of regional history.

North Korea is a basket case. But after three generations of tyrants it is arguably a monarchy.

China is a success story, end of. By any measure, China has come a long way since the Communist regime took over in 1949.

You could say something similar about Soviet Russia. By the 1980s it had stagnated, but the average Russian was incomparably better off than in 1917.

How far have Russians come since then? Has capitalism ushered in a golden age of prosperity and well-being? Here's a clue: life expectancy peaked in 1986. Russians lived longer 40 years ago, under Communism, than they do today.

Vietnam has done reasonably well since other countries stopped invading it.

American foreign policy hasn't done much for Cubans, either. Especially in the last few months.

Perhaps we should finally let go of the cold war mindset. It's imperial thinking, and we can't afford it. US power is fading fast.

Castro and Ho Chi Minh will go down in (our) history as Communist revolutionaries, but they weren't fighting against capitalism. They succeeded by uniting their people against colonial rule.

The USA was the colonial power that Castro was fighting, of course.

At least we no longer think of Nelson Mandela as a Communist and a terrorist. The US state department finally acknowledged as much in 2008, nearly 10 years after he had retired as president of RSA.

Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#66

Post by Loughla »

nemomarx wrote: post #35
appreciatorBus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the costs are low and require no change in personal behaviour, nor even belief in the problem. Billions of people had no idea about changes to aerosol propellants or refrigerants and they were not required to know or agree in order to solve the problem.

Do people have to know about what generates their electricity? They get input now, but we could probably just stop taking public input on new infrastructure and that would avoid poorly motivated protests of wind farms or nuclear.

Stop taking public input on public infrastructure. That would go over life a lead balloon.

Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#67

Post by nemomarx »

Loughla wrote: post #66
nemomarx wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people have to know about what generates their electricity? They get input now, but we could probably just stop taking public input on new infrastructure and that would avoid poorly motivated protests of wind farms or nuclear.

Stop taking public input on public infrastructure. That would go over life a lead balloon.

Good point - maybe also stop taking public input on decisions. :V

I kid, but I get more sympathetic to totalitarian countries seeing how people react to some things too. it simplifies "banding together" if there's fewer decision makers I guess and I can't think of a good way to have that squared with democracy.

Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#68

Post by smallerize »

gerdesj wrote: post #64
rolph wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it wont matter how much oxygen you try to dissolve, if the temperature is too high you wont hold enough dissolved oxygen to allow aquatic life. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_...

Now look up the temperatures within the water column. I don't see any notes about pressure. Temperature is one axis ... Your charts show several "green house gases" and with some squinting and handwaving could be used to "prove" that the seas are mopping up those gases and saving the planet. I used to keep tropical fish and they somehow managed to survive in water temperatures way higher than the open seas. In an aqu…

The note on pressure is near the top of the page. "at one atmosphere (101.325 kPa) ". How would we even move the pressure axis for the ocean? I have no idea what you're complaining about.

Re: Underwater oxygen loss threatens earth's stability, researchers warn

#69

Post by appreciatorBus »

nemomarx wrote: post #35
appreciatorBus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the costs are low and require no change in personal behaviour, nor even belief in the problem. Billions of people had no idea about changes to aerosol propellants or refrigerants and they were not required to know or agree in order to solve the problem.

Do people have to know about what generates their electricity? They get input now, but we could probably just stop taking public input on new infrastructure and that would avoid poorly motivated protests of wind farms or nuclear.

They do not need to know what generates there electricity but...

- when what generates the power changes the landscape they can see, many people get upset, however irrationally

- many people are emotionally attached to lifestyle objects that use fossil fuels, i.e. cars, boats, planes, etc

- even where there are good options, most people are not willing to spend one extra penny

- even when there are options that cost less (i.e. bicycles, walking) humans spend a lot of their energy thinking about status and struggle to voluntarily choose things that they fear might result in a loss of status

- even if you solve all that, collective action problems are a named thing for a reason - they are hard and don't necessarily have obvious answers.

My point is not that everything is hopeless, but that OP who said "Have we ever as a species successfully changed our behavior on a scale..." has a point that we will have to grapple with if we want to actually change stuff. Wishing human nature away doesn't actually solve anything.

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