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Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

citizens-initiative.europa.eu

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Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#141

Post by hunterpayne »

hnav wrote: post #36
Bender wrote: post #21

As far as I know the only thing that influences change is money. What methods could be implemented to take money away from governments that implement with such things? All of my ideas would be very low traction but there are clever people here on HN that I am sure could come up with a few better ideas. One of my (probably dumb) ideas is: - Create a legal presence in a country that does not require being dystopian, re…

They control the last mile of the Internet so it would require satellite networking run by another country to cut them out like this.

If only there was some free speech absolutist who had their very own satellite Internet company. I must be forgetting someone...

PS The dishes are hard (but not impossible) to hide.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#142

Post by hunterpayne »

AuthAuth wrote: post #135
hunterpayne wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think what that would mean for your average person in a country that didn't like their government...for instance in Russia. You clearly haven't thought through the consequences of your suggestion.

This isnt legislation for Russia

You assume you will always like and agree with your current government. And there are European countries who already jail people for political speech the government doesn't like.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#143

Post by hunterpayne »

Root_Denied wrote: post #133
hunterpayne wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want a proposal? Make a kids-only set of sites. And then make hardware/software that can access only those sites. Make sure existing and future "non-kid" hardware can't access those kids-only sites. You can allow companies to register that they are one of these kid friendly sites with the additional regulation that would entail. Then make a kid having hardware that can access the normal Internet like having a bee…

One issue that I see with this type of system is that it doesn't allow for parental/guardian oversight of what kids are doing or discussing. Ever gone down the auto-suggestion rabbit hole on YouTube Kids? You start getting into weird and potentially disturbing territory much more quickly than you'd expect.

That's a good point. However, its possible to police YouTube Kids without destroying free speech. Policing the entire Internet and everyone else...not so much. That's the whole point of having the companies providing "kids" sites to register and have a specific set of regulations about the "kids" sites. Perhaps those regulations include parental controls.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#144

Post by mothballed »

hunterpayne wrote: post #129
iLoveOncall wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely don't. They ask for your date of birth to fill it on their app and that's it.

In most US states, they require the delivery driver to recheck the ID in person. Depends on the state though.

Not for wine, not usually. Wine can be mail ordered, the carrier has no idea what it even is. They might require signature on delivey, but anyone who's dealt with UPS and fedex know they will essentially never look at ID. In high school I used to order wine and they had me sign but I was under 18, the box was non-descript and the delivery man had no idea what it was so a kid signing for it made no difference. It's different than beer or liquor sales where it's under the more recent COVID era exceptions that require checking ID and the delivery person actually knows what it is.

The mail order wine stuff is way older and under way different rules than most other alcohol delivery services.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#145

Post by leonvoss »

hunterpayne wrote: post #139
leonvoss wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ah, OK, so you admit a problem exists. That's step one... Okay but for your position to be tenable you have to then go to step 2, which is some parents are incompetent at doing this, and step 3, which is that, nevertheless, their children, who are randomized copies of them genetically, still somehow need and benefit from the filters that their parents can't or won't apply. Then you get to step 4, which is that all o…

You do realize that you can just require auths for the kids and not the adults right? It requires a regulatory and hardware solution but its very possible. PS Also, no solution would ever be perfect. Walls don't deny access, they change traffic patterns. So if it works 99% of the time, its good enough.

Because this is for stupid people, it will be done in a stupid way. They aren't interested in cash bought anonymous auth tokens that require you to be over 18 to the store clerk or whatever. In part this is stupidity, in part this panic is also about "pedophilia" so they want to make sure whoever is talking to their daughter who is using a parent authenticated tiktok account gets arrested promptly because he showed his passport as opposed to being there with an untraceable anonymous auth token he bought for $1.99 at a random convenience store.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#146

Post by datakan »

buzer wrote: post #116
datakan wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just had a pretty major setback in court.

Can you be more specific? The only related court cases I'm aware of are U.S. The Crew lawsuit which seems to have reached settlement recently and the French case regarding which I haven't seen any updates since it's filing.

https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/stop-killing-games-fails-to-s...

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#147

Post by hunterpayne »

leonvoss wrote: post #145
hunterpayne wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that you can just require auths for the kids and not the adults right? It requires a regulatory and hardware solution but its very possible. PS Also, no solution would ever be perfect. Walls don't deny access, they change traffic patterns. So if it works 99% of the time, its good enough.

Because this is for stupid people, it will be done in a stupid way. They aren't interested in cash bought anonymous auth tokens that require you to be over 18 to the store clerk or whatever. In part this is stupidity, in part this panic is also about "pedophilia" so they want to make sure whoever is talking to their daughter who is using a parent authenticated tiktok account gets arrested promptly because he showed h…

You don't allow adults on the kids sites. So your theoretical pedo would have to provide ID to get the "kids" hardware. And the "kids" hardware can't go on the normal/adult/anonymous Internet. Done...

For the EU, this has nothing to do with kids.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#148

Post by hunterpayne »

mothballed wrote: post #144
hunterpayne wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most US states, they require the delivery driver to recheck the ID in person. Depends on the state though.

Not for wine, not usually. Wine can be mail ordered, the carrier has no idea what it even is. They might require signature on delivey, but anyone who's dealt with UPS and fedex know they will essentially never look at ID. In high school I used to order wine and they had me sign but I was under 18, the box was non-descript and the delivery man had no idea what it was so a kid signing for it made no difference. It's di…

As I said, it depends on the state. I've had to sign for wine before.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#149

Post by mothballed »

hunterpayne wrote: post #148
mothballed wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for wine, not usually. Wine can be mail ordered, the carrier has no idea what it even is. They might require signature on delivey, but anyone who's dealt with UPS and fedex know they will essentially never look at ID. In high school I used to order wine and they had me sign but I was under 18, the box was non-descript and the delivery man had no idea what it was so a kid signing for it made no difference. It's di…

As I said, it depends on the state. I've had to sign for wine before.

Did you order it under mail order delivery rules or under alcohol retailer rules? They're quite different. If the person you bought it from offered beer and alcohol as well, you were probably ordering under the retailer paradigm which requires an ID check. If you ordered it straight from a wine producer or exclusive wine seller then it was probably under the mail order framework. The point isn't that all wine purchases aren't ID'd, it's that there is a framework under which you can legally order wine online without an ID check happening -- if you pursue the alcohol retailer delivery rather than wine mail order route you might not be able to do that though.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#150

Post by berkes »

KPGv2 wrote: post #134
berkes wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that you don't own your handle. Therefore you aren't your handle. Edit: to clarify: You aren't your handle, because it can be taken away from you, can be injected, blocked, overridden, etc. My technical rambling then went on about how or when we can make this "handle" decentralized so it cannot be taken away from you. Hard. As proven in practice. Almost impossible. My name is maintained by a government. I…

> My point is that you don't own your handle. Therefore you aren't your handle. This is a good point. I wrote a self-deprecating post to Reddit one time that got flagged by AI or someone who isn't a native English speaker as a "threat of violence." This is almost word for word the exchange that triggered it: Me: [some in-depth discussion of electrical wiring in a house] Other person: Wow, thank you so much! I would h…

I'm "berkes" almost everywhere. And my domain is my handle as well: berk.es.

So I do the same as you. But I am quite sure e.g. The Great Musk In All His Wisdom will one day either find me annoying and hand over the now discontinued x.com/berkes to someone who agrees better whith His views. Or decides his politics are better served by raising accounts from the deaths and making some AI voice act like me, that spew political messages.

I own "berkes" about everywhere. But nowhere do I really own it. Not even the domain name. The only handle I truly own is some bc1q....... address. One that has -by design- no reputation and one that's impossible to write in pen on the back of a beermat after a nice discussion in a bar.

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