Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

socialeurope.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 78 posts

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#51

Post by bryanlarsen »

leugim wrote: post #9

This is a shortcut for taxing unrealized gains. They start with NW >100 million and start decreasing the concept of Ultra-Rich until everyone non-broke eventually pays it. In Spain it happened with the Work Tax which from >60k EUR (68k USD) goes to 45% as if earning 3k EUR (3.4k USD) per month made you rich.

A marginal tax rate of 45% above USD68K seems unsurprising for any developed country with public health care. Presumably the realized rate at EUR60K is a lot lower than 45% and 45% is only the marginal rate.

American tax numbers are only a little lower, but do not include health care. An American employer is likely paying around $8K for a single person or $20K for somebody with a family. That's a real and very heavy tax that Americans pay.

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#52

Post by andriamanitra »

clickety_clack wrote: post #23

I don’t agree with wealth taxes. The ultra wealthy will find the ways to avoid them and it will end up disproportionately landing on the middle class like everything else. If it has to be done, it should be at the sources of the wealth so that they can’t be dodged. Things like property taxes, corporate taxes, taxation of stock buybacks (which is a way to pay dividends without paying income tax on them). The middle cl…

I don't see how a wealth tax that starts at $100M could possibly disproportionately (or at all) land on the middle class.

I'm sure the parasitic class will always find ways to partially dodge taxes but compared to income and capital gains taxes a strongly worded wealth tax would be much more difficult to avoid. We just need to be careful with the wording of the law to make sure lobbyists are not allowed to carve out any loopholes that can be abused by tax planners.

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#53

Post by ezst »

leugim wrote: post #9

This is a shortcut for taxing unrealized gains. They start with NW >100 million and start decreasing the concept of Ultra-Rich until everyone non-broke eventually pays it. In Spain it happened with the Work Tax which from >60k EUR (68k USD) goes to 45% as if earning 3k EUR (3.4k USD) per month made you rich.

Let them start somewhere. Inequality has only accelerated in the past decades, undoing the fabric of the fair and democratic society which many/most people perceive as a condition for long-term stability. If taxing wealth isn't it, then what else do you propose? We seem to agree that taxing income stinks while news like "50 richest families own 50% of the country" abound. Those didn't get there by working a job or being clever/lucky about betting their pension money on some ETF. Only extraordinary measures will make a dent on this extraordinary accumulation.

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#54

Post by coredog64 »

clickety_clack wrote: post #23

I don’t agree with wealth taxes. The ultra wealthy will find the ways to avoid them and it will end up disproportionately landing on the middle class like everything else. If it has to be done, it should be at the sources of the wealth so that they can’t be dodged. Things like property taxes, corporate taxes, taxation of stock buybacks (which is a way to pay dividends without paying income tax on them). The middle cl…

> taxation of stock buybacks (which is a way to pay dividends without paying income tax on them

I don't think you've got the mechanism correct here. If a corporation has cash, they can pay dividends which lands in the pocket of every shareholder equally. Or they can buy those shares back from shareholders who are willing to cash in. If I hold shares and don't sell in the face of a buyback, I'm not getting a dividend. Instead, my on-paper wealth has increased by the amount that the buyback juiced the price of my shares. If I do sell, then I pay short term capital gains (which are effectively the same rate as income tax) or long term capital gains (which are lower but probably not low enough to offset the extra tax created by inflation)

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#55

Post by yokaze »

leugim wrote: post #49
ninininino wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Spain it happened with the Work Tax which from >60k EUR (68k USD) goes to 45% as if earning 3k EUR (3.4k USD) per month made you rich. Sounds worse than it is since it's progressive taxation meaning the effective tax rate for the entire 60k EUR is somewhere like ~29%, not 45. €0 to €12,450: 19% €12,451 to €20,200: 24% €20,201 to €35,200: 30% €35,201 to €60,000: 37% Source: Gemini so it could be complete bullshit…

It's progressive so the first 10k are not taxed as the last 10k. I do not deny, the problem is that 60k is the highest bracket* so >60k you are considered rich. In Spain if you earn more than 60k you are considered rich. * There's one of 300k at 47% but even that one does not change so much as the 60k.

> In Spain if you earn more than 60k you are considered rich.

No, you are high earner. It puts you squarely in the top 10%.

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#56

Post by geertj »

ktosobcy wrote: post #44
geertj wrote: post #31

The last thing the EU needs is a higher budget. Unelected bureaucrats that control a trillion dollar budget and have the ability to introduce legislation that supersedes national laws, what could possibly go wrong?

Can we stop parrotic absurdly stupid "unelected bureaucrats" mantra? EU and it's bodies is not more "unelected" than in any other government body -- in the UK people don't vote for the PM, members of Lords or civil servants ("unelected burocrats managing money")… same goes for most of other countries…

[flagged]

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#57

Post by autoexec »

AntronX wrote: post #33

Europeans make around half of what similar roles make in US and pay up to 70% of their income in taxes (50% income + 20% vat). What are they spending all that money on?

free or heavily subsidized healthcare, childcare, higher education, and excellent public transportation?

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#58

Post by AntronX »

autoexec wrote: post #57
AntronX wrote: post #33

Europeans make around half of what similar roles make in US and pay up to 70% of their income in taxes (50% income + 20% vat). What are they spending all that money on?

free or heavily subsidized healthcare, childcare, higher education, and excellent public transportation?

Then why work hard if everything you need is paid by someone else? This may explain low salaries in EU and 30 day PTO. Then if people don't make a lot they have to tax them more to pay for all this free stuff which further disincentivizes working harder.

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#59

Post by EPWN3D »

andriamanitra wrote: post #52
clickety_clack wrote: post #23

I don’t agree with wealth taxes. The ultra wealthy will find the ways to avoid them and it will end up disproportionately landing on the middle class like everything else. If it has to be done, it should be at the sources of the wealth so that they can’t be dodged. Things like property taxes, corporate taxes, taxation of stock buybacks (which is a way to pay dividends without paying income tax on them). The middle cl…

I don't see how a wealth tax that starts at $100M could possibly disproportionately (or at all) land on the middle class. I'm sure the parasitic class will always find ways to partially dodge taxes but compared to income and capital gains taxes a strongly worded wealth tax would be much more difficult to avoid. We just need to be careful with the wording of the law to make sure lobbyists are not allowed to carve out…

1. Wealth tax happens on assets > 100M 2. Wealth > 100M flees jurisdictions where it could be taxes 3. No receipts on wealth tax 4. Wealth tax boosters need something to brag about, so they dial the limit down to 50M 5. Wealthy keep dodging 6. 50M becomes 25M, becomes 10M, becomes 1M 7. Definition of "wealth" is expanded to include things like home equity lines or credit, unexercised stock options, unvested RSUs

Re: Europe's Ultra-Rich Could Fund a Substantial Part of the EU's Budget

#60

Post by autoexec »

AntronX wrote: post #58
autoexec wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

free or heavily subsidized healthcare, childcare, higher education, and excellent public transportation?

Then why work hard if everything you need is paid by someone else? This may explain low salaries in EU and 30 day PTO. Then if people don't make a lot they have to tax them more to pay for all this free stuff which further disincentivizes working harder.

> why work hard if everything you need is paid by someone else?

So they can buy things they don't need but just want. So they can really splurge on their many luxurious vacations for example. People in Europe work harder than Americans. They work fewer hours, but are much more productive than workers in the US.

Nobody should feel "incentivized" to work harder by the threat that they'll become homeless the moment they get sick or need an ambulance. If you feel like you'd never work hard if you didn't have that threat constantly hanging over you maybe you're just unnaturally lazy.

Post reply on HN