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Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

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Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#91

Post by lelanthran »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #71
lelanthran wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So in practice access to it is not always that easy. Understood, but the solution cannot be "allow prescription drugs to be sold online". If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution.

> If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution. Indeed, access must be made easy. Abortion, through a pill or otherwise, should be accessible anywhere, freely, and any medical record should be kept absolutely secret, including from the family, especially if she’s underage. I don’t think that’s the direction they’re headed though. I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objectio…

> Indeed, access must be made easy.

That is my point. If access is not easy, selling prescription drugs to anonymous buyers is not the solution - access must be made easy.

> I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objection of conscience is to make abortion less accessible.

I don't think so. No one, whether a doctor or not, should be forced by the state to end the life of any being. That choice must be totally theirs to make, not the states.

I do not trust any state, government or ruler with the power to compel speech or action.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#92

Post by toomuchtodo »

bragr wrote: post #73
eur0pa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah that does it. Abortion pills are not candies. There's a reason why they are expected to be used in a hospital setting, with medical personnel nearby. If these websites facilitate the distribution of prescription meds, they're no different from other "online pharmacies" and get the same treatment

>There's a reason why they are expected to be used in a hospital setting, with medical personnel nearby. Not really true. They've been repeatedly shown in studies to be safe for home use. They're evaluating packaging and instructions for possible OTC sale in the the future: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...

https://www.plancpills.org/

https://www.plancpills.org/guide-how-to-get-abortion-pills

(US centric)

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#93

Post by loup-vaillant »

hbn wrote: post #82
realo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but... you used the word "belief". Nothing scientific there. If the mother was raped and knows for sure she will not bring up her rapist's kid ... or if there is a possibility that letting the baby be born will kill the mother, MY belief is to follow the mother's wishes. It's her body and her life.

Whether or not a fetus is human life isn't a scientific concept. Pro-choice people "believe" that it isn't. That's not scientific either.

> Pro-choice people "believe" that it isn't.

Not all of us I would bet. One can believe the fetus is a human life, and still want to allow the mother ending it. Sure it’s rough, but this is a classic case of conflicting interest. Pretending the fetus isn’t human yet is just one of several ways to side with the mother’s decision. Malformations or danger to the mother’s life are two others. And then there’s the more radical position that as long as the fetus hasn’t left the womb, the mother’s autonomy is still more important than its life.

This last one is less a belief, (one week before birth the baby is clearly viable), than it is a value system. Though I’d be curious to see the statistics on countries that allow abortion up to birth itself. If it turns out practically no one aborts after 4 months or whatever, that particular point would be moot.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#94

Post by lelanthran »

realo wrote: post #57
Argonaut998 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you believe this fetus to be a human life then it follows believing that if it is terminated, it is akin to murder/infanticide. I don't know why people are being so (deliberatively?) reductive ITT.

Yes but... you used the word "belief". Nothing scientific there. If the mother was raped and knows for sure she will not bring up her rapist's kid ... or if there is a possibility that letting the baby be born will kill the mother, MY belief is to follow the mother's wishes. It's her body and her life.

> Yes but... you used the word "belief". Nothing scientific there.

And you think the opposing arguments are?

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#95

Post by gpderetta »

lelanthran wrote: post #24
altern8 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because they don't want to get sued. So, you think the government should force doctors to perform abortions, like putting them in jail if they don't want to do it?

I don't think GP was making that argument (well, I didn't read it that way). He's just saying that access may not be easy. [EDIT: I see GP did reply to parent, and he apparently was making that asinine argument :-/ Oh well, at least I interpreted original GP comment charitably]

of course doctors should not be forced, that's ridiculous, but the SSN should prioritise hiring non-objecting doctors, at least in areas where there isn't enough coverage (in the same way it should prioritise hiring other specialities as needed).

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#96

Post by [deleted] »

lelanthran wrote: post #91
loup-vaillant wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution. Indeed, access must be made easy. Abortion, through a pill or otherwise, should be accessible anywhere, freely, and any medical record should be kept absolutely secret, including from the family, especially if she’s underage. I don’t think that’s the direction they’re headed though. I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objectio…

> Indeed, access must be made easy. That is my point. If access is not easy, selling prescription drugs to anonymous buyers is not the solution - access must be made easy. > I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objection of conscience is to make abortion less accessible. I don't think so. No one, whether a doctor or not, should be forced by the state to end the life of any being. That choice…

[deleted]

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#97

Post by loup-vaillant »

lelanthran wrote: post #91
loup-vaillant wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution. Indeed, access must be made easy. Abortion, through a pill or otherwise, should be accessible anywhere, freely, and any medical record should be kept absolutely secret, including from the family, especially if she’s underage. I don’t think that’s the direction they’re headed though. I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objectio…

> Indeed, access must be made easy. That is my point. If access is not easy, selling prescription drugs to anonymous buyers is not the solution - access must be made easy. > I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objection of conscience is to make abortion less accessible. I don't think so. No one, whether a doctor or not, should be forced by the state to end the life of any being. That choice…

> No one, whether a doctor or not, should be forced by the state to end the life of any being.

I feel you. But that right not to kill, conflicts with the autonomy of women. Which is more important?

> I do not trust any state, government or ruler with the power to compel speech or action.

France, and many other countries, makes it a crime (misdemeanour I think?) not to help people. If I see someone about to die, and I could prevent that, and I don’t, then I could go to jail.

This is textbook compelled action, and I fully condone it. If you don’t help someone from immediate danger you’re trash, and you should pay the consequences.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#98

Post by khriss »

lelanthran wrote: post #49
chpatrick wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Hungary abortion is technically legal but only surgically, and the public health system is mental torture including being forced to listen to the heartbeat of the fetus (thanks to our local fascist party). Women on Web is a million times more humane. It's not like anyone thinks "oh I'm pregnant I'll just pop a pill and it's solved".

[dead]

> That's clearly already a child and I will object.

Clearly you believe in the primacy of preserving life. I am wondering if your belief extends to after the child is born?

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#99

Post by dudefeliciano »

mbmbn wrote: post #62
khalic wrote: post #2

[flagged]

So, providing information on how to carry out abortion after the 1st trimester in a country where abortion in the first 90 days is legal and free is not the disturbing part to you… it’s trying to prevent abortions after those 90 days. I believe there’s something very wrong with your moral compass, pal.

the question was why do far right populists care so much about genitals and reproduction, nothing to do with whatever you are saying here

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#100

Post by Forgeties79 »

true_religion wrote: post #66
Forgeties79 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I also think that it's a good idea to know what you're doing Why do so many people say this about women and their bodies? You seriously think the vast majority of women considering an abortion haven’t given it much thought? Should they all have to face more obstructions and guilt trips and patronizing lectures because a handful maybe don’t? It’s ridiculous. As for the “heartbeat” standard, I’m not getting in to…

They are just applying the same logic behind all prescription medication to abortion pills. To this day, despite having taken them for the past 30 years, I still require a new prescription for Adderall because society deemed the addiction risk too high to avoid inserting a doctor into the equation every 30 days. Abortifacients can cause the death of the person taking them. That’s something no one wants. Can some peop…

He is talking about abortion writ large, not the relative risk of a specific medication. He’s even making an appeal to the “heart beat rule.”
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