GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search • Hacker News Board

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#131

Post by tsimionescu » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:18 PM UTC

convolvatron wrote: post #116

tsimionescu wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true at any border crossing - you have to submit to searches by CBP agents, who don't need any probable cause. I believe device searches are still a somewhat greyer area, at least if password protected (as providing a password would be compelled speech, unlike a luggage search which can be conducted without any action from your part).

in autistic-land, doesn't it seem like the power to perform searches by border police should be directed related and limited to their function - that is the inspection of material goods to insure that (a) illegal smuggling isn't taking place and (b) the proper import taxes have been paid. unless the phone itself is a suspicious good, there should never be any justification for a border officer to demand visibility of…

I think one of their main justifications for claiming a right to inspect your phone is the possibility that you could be carrying illegal data on it, such as CSAM (which they apparently invoked in this particular case). Since they generally can inspect your luggage to check if you're crossing the border with illegal goods, this seems somewhat plausible as a legal interpretation.

Personally, I believe that there should be explicit laws protecting your personal devices, given the amount of sensitive private information they carry. I think an explicit law, or even amendment to the constitution, would be much better than relying on ever more arcane legal interpretations being invented by judges based on vague wording and vague principles.

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#132

Post by mpdpsycho » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:18 PM UTC

illithid0 wrote: post #71

mpdpsycho wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say that as they may, it’s a whole different slope to fall down if they want to do anything about that beyond pointing and whining. If we cross that bridge, we probably have bigger things to worry about. So I think it should be fine for now.

The DOJ is attempting to prosecute, so I suppose the success or failure of that will tell us what we need to know about bridges and slopes.

Yeah, I’m placing some faith here on that falling through for sure.

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#133

Post by skullone » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:18 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #119

skullone wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not snarky, it's the truth. Suspending the constitution within 100 miles of every port of entry? Nah son, the government can conduct their petty investigations with a warrant and proper digital forensics if they want to search your property.

>Nah son, the government can conduct their petty investigations with a warrant Your original post: >Maybe digital forensics shouldn't be handled by barely highschool graduates at a busy border crossing Sounds like you're moving the goalposts from "haha CBP agents are dumb" to "they should get warrants".

Both can be true!

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#134

Post by danudey » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:20 PM UTC

antonvs wrote: post #127

TFNA wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, why care what the American founding fathers thought? There have been two centuries since then of developments in democratic countries that some Americans could choose as a model they like more. And now it's the Chinese century anyway.

> On the other hand, why care what the American founding fathers thought? Because they had direct experience with tyranny and exploitation, and documented their response to that in the US founding documents. We care because if you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it. Which is pretty much what's happening right now.

At the same time, it's necessary for societies to grow and evolve. Looking back 250 years and saying "This isn't how THEY would have done it" is not always the correct perspective.

Anyway, you don't have to look back to the founding fathers. Go back to 1930's Germany and you can see all the parallels you want, much closer to today's situation and in a much more modern and relevant context.

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#135

Post by antonvs » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:22 PM UTC

danudey wrote: post #134

antonvs wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, why care what the American founding fathers thought? Because they had direct experience with tyranny and exploitation, and documented their response to that in the US founding documents. We care because if you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it. Which is pretty much what's happening right now.

At the same time, it's necessary for societies to grow and evolve. Looking back 250 years and saying "This isn't how THEY would have done it" is not always the correct perspective. Anyway, you don't have to look back to the founding fathers. Go back to 1930's Germany and you can see all the parallels you want, much closer to today's situation and in a much more modern and relevant context.

> Looking back 250 years and saying "This isn't how THEY would have done it" is not always the correct perspective.

Sure, but usually when someone raises that, they're doing so because they think it is the correct perspective, and that the founding fathers had a good rationale for their position. It's shorthand for going into the entire history.

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#136

Post by tsimionescu » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:23 PM UTC

1970-01-01 wrote: post #125

tsimionescu wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4th ammendemnt is the one that protects your data and other possessions in general, not the 5th. The 5th protects you from being compelled to give testimony that might incriminate you, which then protects you from being compelled to offer a password to access data that could be used to incriminate you. Since 4th ammendemnt protections are significantly curtailed at border crossings, they can actually declare on t…

It's like this: The 5th protects your password, which protects your data, which is already protected by the 4th, but things happen, which is why we have the 5th after the 4th and the password. Agents shouldn't be able to just take your info on the spot, but if they try, you have the 5th amendment right to try and stop them. I'm not a lawyer, but I play one online.

Sure - I'm just pointing out that it's pretty well accepted that they have a right to access your data for inspection when you cross the border, just as they do your luggage. I'm not happy or supportive of this, but it seems to be a lost battle absent new legislation.

The only consideration then is that they can't force you to help them access it. The fact that it's your data is irrelevant. This matters a lot if, for example, you have a copy of your password written down with you - as they are very much allowed to use that to acces your phone. Or, even more plausibly, if your phone is protected only by a biometrics, in which case they can compel you to provide those biometrics and access the phone that way.

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#137

Post by danudey » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:26 PM UTC

RegW wrote: post #88

Zak wrote: post #49

This probably doesn't hold up legally, but it does hold up logically: if the reason a border search exemption exists is to prevent importation of material that is unlawful to import, wiping a storage device also fulfills that purpose.

It would seem that the officer was searching for evidence of a crime, not to prevent importation. However, did that evidence really exist? And if it did, was it for something else? Perhaps, the guy just worried about something far more mundane being discovered? We shall never know. Think Schrodinger's password.

This is the issue with these sorts of laws. How do you make it illegal to destroy evidence of criminal misconduct when the destruction of evidence can make it impossible to prove it ever existed?

That seems to be along the lines of what they're arguing here - they wanted to perform an ostensibly legal search, and he destroyed everything that might have been evidence either way. It would be like a corporation getting an e-mail from the SEC saying "Give us all the communications your company has had about these three stocks" and the company saying "Oops someone erased our e-mail server so I guess we don't have any communications about that."

If you're this paranoid about being searched, or you have something to hide (even if that 'something' is a sense of morality and a desire for a free and just society), wipe your phone before you cross the border and not during. Put some basic apps on (reddit, twitter, etc), leave them logged out or put them on some empty account and tell them you're not a big social media guy or you're on a digital cleanse or something. Wiping your phone when you're being detained by law enforcement is a bad look one way or the other.

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#138

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:30 PM UTC

theandrewbailey wrote: post #124

mingus88 wrote: post #9

This should be an interesting case in today’s legal climate Obviously grafeneOS has no liability. But the owner of the device didn’t take the action to remove the data, the CBP officer entered it. We already have some precedent around being forced to give up your password. How does that change if you are forced to give up a password that is destructive? What if the password works fine at home and the same password do…

You put a sticky note with the duress PIN on your phone. When detained, the officer notices a PIN in plain sight on the phone, enters it, and the phone wipes itself. You were never asked for a PIN. Could you be charged with destruction of evidence?

Bonus points if they ask if it unlocks the device and you say, "No it erases the data," with a straight face.

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#139

Post by deepsun » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:32 PM UTC

shreddit wrote: post #47

Couldn’t GrapheneOS provide a special pin which boots into an “empty”session? Where the user can install some default stuff to not look suspicious?

People are doing that in Belarus (since 2020 the repression still continue). You also need to create a convincing profile and story for all the usual apps. Alibi if you wish.

Re: GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search

#140

Post by deepsun » Tue, Jul 28, 2026, 5:33 PM UTC

Please note that "search" does not mean agent just scrolling through your photos.

In Belarus, such "search" means plugging a USB cable and downloading everything from your phone AND connected clouds (Google Photos, iCloud etc). Then their software (bought for millions of dollars from a foreign security company) compares every single face in your photos/videos with every single face gov has in their database. And you don't have control of the downloaded data.