US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search • Hacker News Board

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#791

Post by randyrand » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 4:55 PM UTC

cameldrv wrote: post #74

I’ve seen a lot of people on the internet over the years say things like “the government can’t make x illegal, it’s just y.” For example, the government can’t make wiping your phone at the border illegal, it’s just punching four numbers into your phone, just like a pin, only a different four numbers, which could just have well been your pin. U.S. law though is highly non-autistic and what you were trying to do is jus…

He didn't type the numbers. The destruction was performed by the border guards recklessly typing in commands to a phone without knowing what it would do.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#792

Post by mothballed » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 4:57 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #600

jonathanstrange wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't travel to the US.

This person is a US citizen. What happens if he just said nothing (beyond identifying and answering basic questions) and refused to cooperate? How long could they hold him? As a citizen they have to allow him to enter eventually. According to the ACLU I think this person would have been better off saying little and not wiping their phone. https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-when-encounter...

I've done that and they held me for about a day, strip and cavity searched me, imprisoned me, "diesel therapy" me across the state while taking me to multiple private ER claiming there were drugs up my ass to run up hospital bills in my name. They've also threatened to revoke my passport or deny me entry to the country (both failed).

They also would not allow me access to a lawyer during questioning or imprisonment.

Another woman was at the same port of entry, was raped to "check for drugs", sued, and lost. Apparently raping is a legal way to search for drugs (that were not there).

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#793

Post by Alive-in-2025 » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 5:00 PM UTC

hliyan wrote: post #774

schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

I worry that at some point, the physical device won't matter. Border authorities will know your email address, and could force you to log into your account on a device they supply. Five years ago, I would have called anyone even bringing up this possibility paranoid, but a lot of things that were completely unimaginable outside of Hollywood political thrillers have already happened.

And then there's the problem that you can't just log in with name and password to your email address. You need your special "authy" style number generator, or a software version on the phone. They know you probably have it on the phone. but what if you bring your other phone that doesn't have it on there - you removed the software before you left so no one could even log in.

All these fancy tricks don't work because the doofus/poor soul at the border doesn't understand the nuances and they don't know if you are lying or not. Even if you wipe your phone and restore it once in the safe usa, that's no doubt suspicion of a crime.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#794

Post by Cider9986 » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 5:02 PM UTC

thrance wrote: post #756

DanHulton wrote: post #65

If your threat model means you can’t afford for border security to view your device, wipe the damn thing yourself before crossing the border and restore it from an encrypted online backup on the other side. You’re just carrying a blank phone that you intend to set up and use later, and they can’t force you to install your backup onto a phone. Now, this is sus as hell, and you’ll probably draw all kinds of extra atten…

> You’re just carrying a blank phone that you intend to set up and use later, and they can’t force you to install your backup onto a phone. They can just make this illegal too, and ask for the keys to your backup, or detain you until you do. Point is, you can't gain freedom through technology. It was always a political thing.

You can hide a backup very well. Make a Proton account for drive over Tor and memorize the credentials.

You can gain freedom though technology but if someone wants to torture you or a regime wants to put you in prison they can always do that.

You could also gain freedom by being anonymous preventing getting caught, though technology.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#795

Post by gruez » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 5:03 PM UTC

mexicocitinluez wrote: post #631

gruez wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They presumably already have some sort of evidence in order to get a warrant and are under criminal investigation. What if there was no warrant, and the SEC just came to ask questions?

If they came to ask questions, then they presumably already think I've committed a crime. This is not the same as randomly stopping someone and asking to see their phone.

A trucker passes a weigh station and is signaled to pull in. As he's pulling in, he's seen dumping the contents of a bottle onto the ground. Is this destruction of evidence or obstruction of justice? He's not under any investigation (trucks are regularly weighed at weigh stations as a matter of normal procedure).

A company is engaged in some white collar crime. They're tipped off that the DoJ launched an investigation on them. No warrants/subpoenas have been issued, and no investigators have shown up. The company instructs the IT team to scrub their email servers. Is this destruction of evidence or obstruction of justice?

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#796

Post by pluto_modadic » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 5:04 PM UTC

qurren wrote: post #261

cameldrv wrote: post #74

I’ve seen a lot of people on the internet over the years say things like “the government can’t make x illegal, it’s just y.” For example, the government can’t make wiping your phone at the border illegal, it’s just punching four numbers into your phone, just like a pin, only a different four numbers, which could just have well been your pin. U.S. law though is highly non-autistic and what you were trying to do is jus…

Would it have been wiser if that person had, as a US citizen, just refused to provide a PIN? At the most they'd just confiscate the phone, and it'd be encrypted anyway. No actual destruction of anything. On another note, maybe GrapheneOS should add some kind of feature where the phone involuntarily destructs if a correct PIN isn't entered for 48 hours (or whatever the user sets at installation time, and changing the…

there already is an app for that. https://f-droid.org/packages/net.oblivion.wipe/

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#797

Post by throwawayffffas » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 5:04 PM UTC

schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

There are 2 cases routine inspections and targeted investigations.

If it's a routine inspection, being uncooperative will probably lead them to escalate. You generally want to keep things routine and boring. If they want to access your device you have to weigh the costs, just log out of everything before you fly and throw away your device after they have had access to it, it's now compromised.

If you are targeted your compliance is irrelevant and only weakens your position, the thing is at the border you don't get all of the protections you get at say a traffic stop they can search everything you have on you without warrants reasonable suspicion or anything.

I am not a lawyer but if you are a citizen they probably can't deny you entry but can probably detain you for an uncomfortable amount of time, and seize whatever they want. Your best defense is to have a burner phone and no other devices nothing they can seize that would hurt you.

For foreign nationals pretty much the same applies except they can deny you entry and ship you off to alligator Alcatraz, just don't fly to America for a few years.

Remember he is not being prosecuted for not handing over his device but for destroying the data they were trying to seize, if he just let them keep the phone he would be Scott free. I.e.the best technical defense is secure encryption with a key thats long enough and not stored on the device.

Actually for the particular case the best technical defense is to not have any data whatsoever on you.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#798

Post by Terr_ » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 5:05 PM UTC

dgoldstein0 wrote: post #467

Telaneo wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but then says he can't have me disrespecting and being a smart-ass to his cops Maybe it's just me, but I am of the exact opposite opinion. Cops have enormous power, and any misuse of it should be pushed back on hard. Cops that misuse their power should not be respected. An informed citizenry is a wonderful asset in making that power imbalance less of a problem.

There's a difference between polite pushback and being straight up disrespectful. It shouldn't matter as the cops shouldn't abuse their power and shouldn't attack people, but we live in the real world. The judge probably didn't want to have to deal with the potential future mess if op didn't learn their lesson and got beat up by a cop.

> disrespectful

To paraphrase a useful distinction I saw once...

Some people talk about mutual respect, but it's not mutual at all because they use a different definition on each side. They demand you "respect" the power of their position or uniform, or else they won't "respect" you as being human.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#799

Post by mothballed » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 5:05 PM UTC

gypsy_boots wrote: post #784

spacedudem wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a convicted felon for the last 25 years without a single incident since I was released. I tell everyone I know to never trust a single thing anyone says if there is any chance you are being looked at for criminal charges. It's "I want a lawyer" and nothing else. Just SHUT THE FUCK UP, don't call me, your parents, someone to bail you out. Call a mother fucking lawyer. Because once you get your sleeve caught up in t…

This is the most logical comment in the entire thread. The only thing to say is "I want a lawyer". Although in this case, he repeatedly said that and wasn't given one. Which just shows that the state can do whatever they'd like, even if it's "unconstitutional". They have a monopoly on violence.

I've been thrown in immigration jail as US citizen. They will not provide or allow you access to a lawyer and you won't see a judge to determine if they have PC to hold you. You just sit there until they decide to eject you. Nothing else to be done and no one to contact, plus most of the other prisoners cannot speak English.

CBP via a bunch of crazy court cases, basically operates outside constitutional constraints. This is also why DHS has been used as private army by POTUS (snatching up people in unmarked vans in Portland for instance) because they can be ordered essentially directly by POTUS and not have to worry about the constitution.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#800

Post by Alive-in-2025 » Mon, Jul 27, 2026, 5:06 PM UTC

cestith wrote: post #721

inigyou wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is first world on a technicality: the first world is defined as countries that were allied with the US during the cold war. If not for that, it'd be classified as developing. It's common to mix up developing/developed and third/first world because they were largely aligned during the cold war. But there is one first-world developing country.

The US is not so allied with its long-time allies as it used to be. Allies tend not to threaten to invade and take over other allies.

The behavior of the us is so stupid and self-destructive I'm constantly amazed that the average trump supporter doesn't see it. But the failure of the political resistance to him is the real surprise. If your buddies have the majority in the house and the senate there nothing you can do?