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US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

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Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#681

Post by mattlondon »

schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

I think in these situations your absolute best bet is fawning compliance. Ask precisely how high they want you to jump.

Perhaps your friendly smiling Yes-Sir-No-Sir-3-bags-Full-Sir act might just be enough to let you get on your way without anything else happening apart from a stamp in your passport.

Even the slightest hint of defiance or surliness from you to a border guard/policeman/etc - potentially at the end of a long shift, tired, angry, pissed-off or whatever - and you're straight away hugely more likely to have a bad day.

Finding strategies to "beat the system" will, I think, just be a shortcut to some other punishment/crime/taken-out-of-sight-and-given-a-proper-kicking-oh-they-resisted-and-went-for-my-gun/etc as this person found out the hard way by trying to be difficult.

I genuinely don't think there is a "get out of jail free card" or magic incantation you can say to get out of these situations apart from just smiling and being polite and not being a dick - if you get into a "who can be more annoying" competition, then the border guards/police will always win since they hold all the cards and will happily ruin your day/holiday/meetings etc by detaining you (its their job to do this after all)

There have been cases very recently in the US where the authority figures down dealing with the public are evidently in a very defensive, aggressive "us-vs-them" mindset, with an itchy trigger-finger to go with it. Don't be the person on the receiving end of a cop seeing-red because you're being a jerk.

The house always wins.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#682

Post by throwway120385 »

Lio wrote: post #649
raxxorraxor wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We probably need honey pod fake OS systems that boots up if not properly handled displaying some stars & stripes as background image and having the US national anthem playing for any sound the OS is trying to play.

I would prefer to backup and wipe my phone before travelling. Then have some planned means of restoring the backup when it's safe to do so. Being caught with a honeypot looks much worse than being caught with a new phone. You can always say you bought a cheap "travel" phone if asked.

It's hard to justify an iPhone Pro Max as a "cheap travel phone" though so you might actually need to buy a cheap travel phone.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#683

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

lentil_soup wrote: post #551
schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

> you may have to think both about protecting your data by technical means, and about not angering the agents more than you plan to That's the same problem with technical solutions to crime. I come from a very dangerous city and I used to have a car that needed a PIN to work. You could turn then engine on and drive but after a minute if you didn't input the PIN it would turn off without warning and start blasting the…

What city was this, if you don't mind me asking?

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#684

Post by ChoGGi »

invalidusernam3 wrote: post #483
itake wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you share the link? This? https://www.eff.org/document/eff-border-search-pocket-guide ---- Seems the better strategy (for iOS) is come in with a plan to say yes to agents without pissing them off (like handing them an empty phone). better to local back up, encrypt, upload to your home server etc. Then login to a fresh iCloud account, selectively install apps, photos, and mail accounts. So it doesn't look like you…

This seems like an insane thing to have to do for visiting a supposed first world country. If phones had been around during USSR times I imagine you would have had to do the same. Personally I will rather just avoid any travel to the US, and I hope others do the same.

My dad's eighty+ years old, he was born in the States, though he did give up his citizenship. He brings a "fake" phone when visiting family, he's been doing so for years.

Me; I just change all my tabs and recent history to slightly kinky porn and truth social. They do look hard, but they don't look hard.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#685

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

mapt wrote: post #657
lentil_soup wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you may have to think both about protecting your data by technical means, and about not angering the agents more than you plan to That's the same problem with technical solutions to crime. I come from a very dangerous city and I used to have a car that needed a PIN to work. You could turn then engine on and drive but after a minute if you didn't input the PIN it would turn off without warning and start blasting the…

As one does. Why, six of the eleven times I've had my car stolen, it was a carjacking with myself or my family member in it.

Six of the eleven times...

Crazy.

What city was this, if you don't mind me asking?

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#686

Post by htek »

criddell wrote: post #600
jonathanstrange wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't travel to the US.

This person is a US citizen. What happens if he just said nothing (beyond identifying and answering basic questions) and refused to cooperate? How long could they hold him? As a citizen they have to allow him to enter eventually. According to the ACLU I think this person would have been better off saying little and not wiping their phone. https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-when-encounter...

And they would have taken his phone, pulled it apart and cloned the memory to get the data. And in a month or three, returned his phone to him in some condition which may or may not include "working".

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#687

Post by axus »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #282

Here is the indictment: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/28513012-samuel-tuni... Here is the statute Tunick is indicted under: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2232 There is an immediate problem: the device was being searched, and this statute criminalizes destruction of property to prevent seizure, not searches. I don't think this statute applies this situation. Regardless of whether the border agen…

OR the US administration could drag out the case hope it gets to the Supreme Court for another roll of the dice on weakening the Bill of Rights.

As usual, government should have obtained a warrant if they wanted to search a US citizen.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#688

Post by criddell »

htek wrote: post #686
criddell wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person is a US citizen. What happens if he just said nothing (beyond identifying and answering basic questions) and refused to cooperate? How long could they hold him? As a citizen they have to allow him to enter eventually. According to the ACLU I think this person would have been better off saying little and not wiping their phone. https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-when-encounter...

And they would have taken his phone, pulled it apart and cloned the memory to get the data. And in a month or three, returned his phone to him in some condition which may or may not include "working".

Sounds like a better outcome to me.

Plus, unless GrapheneOS gets encryption wrong (which I doubt), cloning the memory to get the data isn't really a thing.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#689

Post by baggachipz »

Waterluvian wrote: post #642
schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

Yeah, you really can’t outsmart those with physical power and authority over you. Americans have asked for, or tacitly accepted this treatment of their visitors. The only big-picture solution is to stop visiting.

> Americans have asked for, or tacitly accepted this treatment of their visitors.

Our citizens as well!

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#690

Post by piltdownman »

mattlondon wrote: post #681
schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

I think in these situations your absolute best bet is fawning compliance. Ask precisely how high they want you to jump. Perhaps your friendly smiling Yes-Sir-No-Sir-3-bags-Full-Sir act might just be enough to let you get on your way without anything else happening apart from a stamp in your passport. Even the slightest hint of defiance or surliness from you to a border guard/policeman/etc - potentially at the end of…

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever"
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