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US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

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Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#621

Post by curt15 »

Markoff wrote: post #607
mcv wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security concerns you need to think about when visiting the US are absolutely no less than those when visiting China these days. Treat it like a totalitarian dictatorship with more technological means.

Nobody in China cares about your phone/laptop.* *Unless you are (well) known dissident/journalisy/politician. US is much more totalitarian than China. Lived in China for years, had multiple times various visa/residence permit issues with police and guess what, nobody cared about my electronics or was sending me to any detention, all I've got were quie helpful officers trying to find workarounds for me to deal with th…

Were you a Caucasian in China? Foreigners, particularly those from powerful Western countries, tend to get much more deferential treatment than locals.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#622

Post by imglorp »

lentil_soup wrote: post #551
schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

> you may have to think both about protecting your data by technical means, and about not angering the agents more than you plan to That's the same problem with technical solutions to crime. I come from a very dangerous city and I used to have a car that needed a PIN to work. You could turn then engine on and drive but after a minute if you didn't input the PIN it would turn off without warning and start blasting the…

In phone terms, that's the $5 wrench problem. The elaborate tech is not relevant if you can be simply coerced somehow to bypass it.

Again in phone terms, maybe bring a blank phone through that border.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#623

Post by inigyou »

expedition32 wrote: post #575
helterskelter wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got selected as juror once just hoping to laugh at anything the cops said on the witness stand and let some poor soul go free but it turns out the defendant was just a violent scumbag who stabbed random people in public, and there was a video of it. After we decided he was guilty, they listed other things he had been convicted of and asked if he was a repeat offender... Let's see, shot somebody in the back, robbed…

I don't understand the jury system. If your server is down you don't grab randos from the street to fix it. Hell Americans know this too which is why you have a professional judge and lawyers. And you guys don't have a night watch with pitch forks and muskets to police the village anymore. A jury system is an anachronistic relic.

If your server is down you might ask for advice in an IRC channel, receiving help from whoever is there.

The random selection of juries was supposed to ensure they aren't any special class of people. For instance judges are usually from upper middle class backgrounds and it used to be that your innocence or guilt was decided entirely by the aristocratic nobility. By using random selection, that sort of thing is avoided.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#624

Post by inigyou »

patrick451 wrote: post #278
aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s impossible to remove (even just nearly) all ambiguity. People already complain that there are too many laws on the books.

If there were fewer laws, there would be less to disambiguate.

Look at this week's codeberg drama. They wrote a simple law like "no projects that are mostly AI" and all of HN was like "how dare they be so vague? I need to know what percentage of my characters are allowed to be AI! 49.999% is good, right?"

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#625

Post by Tepix »

microtonal wrote: post #468
Tepix wrote: post #302

Perhaps we need the following feature: Before entering the airport you set your device to auto-wipe after x hours. Once you are sitting in the airplane and flying, you cancel the scheduled automatic wipe.

A GrapheneOS is most likely completely secure in BFU state [1]. So just switch the phone off or reboot it and don't enter your PIN. It is very unlikely that law enforcement is able to decrypt the phone and it does not put you in murky legal terrain, because even an auto-wipe is intentional (IANAL). [1] This is in contrast to many other Android phones outside Pixel and Samsung flagships, because they are too cheap to…

Nothing is completely secure. Your data is less likely to be accessed if your device wipes it.

> even an auto-wipe is intentional (IANAL)

It's also something that's very hard to prove.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#626

Post by inigyou »

razorbeamz wrote: post #315
cameldrv wrote: post #74

I’ve seen a lot of people on the internet over the years say things like “the government can’t make x illegal, it’s just y.” For example, the government can’t make wiping your phone at the border illegal, it’s just punching four numbers into your phone, just like a pin, only a different four numbers, which could just have well been your pin. U.S. law though is highly non-autistic and what you were trying to do is jus…

Good luck proving in a court what he was trying to do though.

Well he told them. He said something like: haha that wiped my phone, now you can't get the data

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#627

Post by gradschool »

shevy-java wrote: post #515
schoen wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that border searches of electronic devices are extremely rare overall. There were some statistics from CBP implying a base rate lower than 1 in 10,000 (I think lower than 1 in 100,000) border crossings. I do know two people who have experienced them as a result of the government taking a personal interest in them, so it's certainly not impossible. However, it's not a common experience. I've personally experience…

But why would that be legal? The device is owned by the individual. No judge signed any warrant search for the device. I can do what I want with my device - that is a basic right of property. Imagine if border guards seize money willy-nilly.

> Imagine if border guards seize money willy-nilly.

no need to imagine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#628

Post by Markoff »

aucisson_masque wrote: post #540

You wouldn't be surprised if that happened when traveling to China or any other autocratic country. I think the issue is that people expect the USA to be the "land of freedom" when it's not anymore. It's turning more and more into an oligarchy and we are at the point where it's just as bad as russia or china. If i was offered a trip to China or russia, i'd go but i would take a burner phone with absolutely nothing im…

No, as someone who lived in China for years (as foreigner) and visited also last year after many years I WOULD BE SURPRISED if this happened when travelling to China, since China is clearly more free than US/Israel.

China wants tourists and don't care about your stupid social media.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#629

Post by elephanlemon »

hn_submit wrote: post #509
schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

What about simply not using a smartphone and accessing your data via internet when you're in the country? You could use Mega (secure file storage) to access your files, for example. I wonder if border agents could coerce you into giving access to your internet file storage, though.

AFAIK in the US their policies do not allow them to access your cloud stored data.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#630

Post by hamper653 »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #496
itake wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you share the link? This? https://www.eff.org/document/eff-border-search-pocket-guide ---- Seems the better strategy (for iOS) is come in with a plan to say yes to agents without pissing them off (like handing them an empty phone). better to local back up, encrypt, upload to your home server etc. Then login to a fresh iCloud account, selectively install apps, photos, and mail accounts. So it doesn't look like you…

who believes an empty phone?

What do you mean?
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