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The Strongest El Niño Ever

theclimatebrink.com

251–260 of 370 posts

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wait, do you mean I should pay to capture the carbon my neighbors emits? No way!" That's why. Edit: Also, as some other comment said, thermodynamics tell us that it would take an inordinate amount of energy to bring carbon back to safe levels. More than what we get from burning oil. It's about entropy and all that. So there's that.

Will doubling of forest helps ? ( not that it is possible )

See my sibling comment to the parent. Doubling forests won't do near enough, because the carbon we've burnt comes from millions of years of forests compacted into coal (among other sources). We'd need to grow millions of years worth of forests, which we just physically don't have the surface area for.

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growth trend matters more than absolute present value. Data centres generally had been seeing energy use growing at 12% annually, or with a doubling time of 5.8 years (about 5 years 10 months). AI is accelerating that trend. In the United States, power consumption by data centres is on course to account for almost half of the growth in electricity demand between now and 2030. Driven by AI use, the US economy is set t…

>Growth trend matters more than absolute present value. Only if the current absolute present value is enough that the resulting trend matters. It was only 2 weeks ago when someone posted an article claiming data centers worldwide use 24x less water than golf courses worldwide. And I mean, you need somewhere to collate all that climate data? You need telecoms to let scientists communicate? >Driven by AI use, the US ec…

Only if...

No.

If the trend continues.

Exponential growth, a/k/a constant periodic percentage growth (per day, month, year, etc.), increases rapidly. Differences (or errors) in magnitude measurement disappear rapidly: a factor of two in a single generation, a factor of ten in about three generations, a factor of 100 in less than 7, a factor of one thousand in fewer than 10.

What matters is that the growth rate continue.

Which of course, it usually doesn't. Most growth trends follow a sigmoid rather than exponential curve (initially), or more complex longer-term dynamics.

The point of your infamous horse quote was less to show that the Earth would be covered in horses (or their effluvia), than that the observed current trend could not reasonably continue. And as some of us are aware, it didn't, due to the adoption of ... the petroleum-fueled automobile ... which has some bearing on this particular HN post itself.

Had the automobile not come along, or petroleum reserves proved much more limited as was widely believed at the time[1], large horse-congested cities such as London, New York, and Chicago would likely have seen sharply slowed or even reversed growth under negative hygiene pressures. It was the multiple factors of growth in fossil fuel use (displacing horses, and their effluvia), development of sewerage systems, solid waste disposal, food safety and purity, refrigeration, and public health which turned cities from death zones to attractive living places, rather than merely drawing desperate immigrants through high wages amidst rampant rural and foreign poverty.

But the point remains that the sustained growth rate matters far more than the starting point.

2030 is three and a half years away. That's soon.

________________________________

Notes:

1. It wasn't until the 1930s with the discovery of the East Texas Oil Field in the US and of vast fields in Saudi Arabia that it seemed likely that oil was more than a short-term resource. In marked contrast to, say, the short-lived Indian natural gas boom of the late 19th and early 20th centuries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_gas_boom>. Daniel Yergin's The Prize is an excellent history of the industry's growth, though I disagree strongly with the author's strong allegiance to it.

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#253
post #155
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was fairly impossible to find a restaurant in Paris that had an AC not so long time ago. It’s totally not an issue in states.

That's because Europeans are more of nonconformists and could deal with some 7 to 10 super hot days in a year. It's now weeks in a row.

Europe could never "handle" it. Even in 1990-2001, Europe averaged about 3 heat-related deaths per 100,000: https://www.statista.com/chart/36367/average-annual-heat-rel..., compared to about 1 per 100,000 in the Americas at the time.

3 per 100,000 is a lot. That's higher than the homicide rates in New England and the upper midwest of the U.S.

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh you looked up 2126 on the Google did you? can you explain this verification process a bit more maybe? is it based on world3? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World3

these people (the model) predicted that Food per person peaks around 2015 hahaha. not only that, they predicted population would peak at 7 billion at around 2030. there's a sort of person who would look at these false predictions and willingly not update, but instead move the goal post. here's the reality: there's small subset of unfortunate people who still cling on to this model despite being demolished by reality.…

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Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Growth trend matters more than absolute present value. Only if the current absolute present value is enough that the resulting trend matters. It was only 2 weeks ago when someone posted an article claiming data centers worldwide use 24x less water than golf courses worldwide. And I mean, you need somewhere to collate all that climate data? You need telecoms to let scientists communicate? >Driven by AI use, the US ec…

Only if... No. If the trend continues. Exponential growth, a/k/a constant periodic percentage growth (per day, month, year, etc.), increases rapidly . Differences (or errors) in magnitude measurement disappear rapidly : a factor of two in a single generation, a factor of ten in about three generations, a factor of 100 in less than 7, a factor of one thousand in fewer than 10. What matters is that the growth rate cont…

>Exponential growth, a/k/a constant periodic percentage growth (per day, month, year, etc.), increases rapidly. Differences (or errors) in magnitude measurement disappear rapidly: a factor of two in a single generation, a factor of ten in about three generations, a factor of 100 in less than 7, a factor of one thousand in fewer than 10.

Exponential Growth in datacenters is extremely unlikely.

I doubt it could be sustained for half a generation before Colo became cheaper than air.

>But the point remains that the sustained growth rate matters far more than the starting point.

If you add "Sustained" in sure, but its unsustainable, leading back to the starting point mattering more than the rate.

Theres not enough RAM for now. You double colo space worldwide, and there's simply not going to be computers to put in there. That's just the canary, there's indicators of other component shortages. But like, pretending this is exponential will quickly burn out other things. Steel. Powder Coat. Fibre.

Not to mention that funding for data center expansion is already drying up and projects are being cancelled. I honestly dont believe in a single local project that isnt branded NextDC or Equinix. Outside of them I wouldnt be surprised if 90% of projects failed to materialise.

I dont know what world you live in where you think theres an exponential Data Centre growth going on but its not this one. We are already up against the wall. I guarantee you will have a new industry you just learned about to get anxious about by 2030. Just how Bitcoin didn't exponentially grow to consume the whole planets energy supply by 2025 as predicted.

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#256

We all know we’re way past the time where we need to cut the carbon emissions, like it was 30 years ago. Why aren’t the governments investing money on research on carbon capture technology? That’s the only way left to undo massive carbon emissions due to industrialisation

Indeed.

We needed to reach zero emissions 20 years ago and today we should have strong negative emissions.

At this rate I don't think humanity will reach zero emissions before 2050. It's going to take a couple of very bad years for humanity to take this seriously.

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#257
post #31

Another thing AI makes worse because of all the energy consumption. I hope we have something more to show than dozens of to-do apps when our children and grandchildren ask which important things made the massive use of AI necessary.

Yes. Something like 45% of global emissions come from electricity generation.

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to criticise of every country, but we're trying. The US is not trying (*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Agreement#/media/File:Pa... * Not aimed at all the wonderful, sane and reasonable people of the USA.

> There's a lot to criticise of every country, but we're trying. The US is not trying (*) I'd argue that it's a bit misleading to treat the US as a single entity for this topic. The population is deeply divided on issues like this one.

>The population is deeply divided on issues like this one.

The politicians they population elect are not deeply divided, and thus can be considered a single entity that refuses to even try to do something.

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you don't know, there is a meme in the US that Europe don't know/don't have A/C. We do, but in some coutries there are laws banning A/C below 25°C (77°F) in public places, so (US) tourist don't get the cold air hit when entering a building like a musseum, leaving with the impression we don't know A/C. No general A/C might be the case in regions that never needed it before (mild summers, cold winters), but the…

Something like 90% of US residential buildings have AC. For Europe, it's around 20% (for good reason, mind you). It's not a meme if it's an actual fact that many European homes are not prepared for these kinds of increasingly common heat waves, and I got the impression that the parent was showing genuine concern.

House build after WW2 are terrible. I miss my ancient Berlin house with 80cm thick walls. Cool in summer, warm in winter.

Re: The Strongest El Niño Ever

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if... No. If the trend continues. Exponential growth, a/k/a constant periodic percentage growth (per day, month, year, etc.), increases rapidly . Differences (or errors) in magnitude measurement disappear rapidly : a factor of two in a single generation, a factor of ten in about three generations, a factor of 100 in less than 7, a factor of one thousand in fewer than 10. What matters is that the growth rate cont…

>Exponential growth, a/k/a constant periodic percentage growth (per day, month, year, etc.), increases rapidly. Differences (or errors) in magnitude measurement disappear rapidly: a factor of two in a single generation, a factor of ten in about three generations, a factor of 100 in less than 7, a factor of one thousand in fewer than 10. Exponential Growth in datacenters is extremely unlikely. I doubt it could be sust…

Again: the point remains that the sustained growth rate matters far more than the starting point.

And again: it usually doesn't. Most growth trends follow a sigmoid rather than exponential curve.

You're arguing against points I'm not making.

The point I am making is to keep an eye on the growth trend (and whatever might constrain that, you've given some credible concerns here), rather than the starting magnitude.

The question of how much societal resource information services can plausibly consume over a long term is an interesting one. Looking at biological analogues, the human brain accounts for roughly 25% of our own metabolic output, which I suspect is the present record.[1]

I get 8% for total present use in commercial computing, with the US EIA projecting a pretty steady growth to exceed all refrigeration, lighting, space cooling, and ventilation, by 2050, at about 350% of present levels. It looks as if that analysis presumes a 5% annual growth rate. The full report does incorporate AI in its considerations.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65564>

Specifically:

We assume AI servers will increasingly skew more energy intensive, the installed stock of AI servers grows exponentially through at least 2040, and computational efficiency will increase over time. In our High Electricity Demand case, we assume the exponential growth in AI servers will continue through 2050, and the rate of improvement in server computational efficiency will reflect historical trends.

Full report: https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/narrative/>

Notes: ________________________________

1. Apparently among vertebrates typical metabolic fraction is between 2--8%, though there may be some tree shrews which approach humans as a percentage if not total CNS metabolic magnitude. "Ratio of central nervous system to body metabolism in vertebrates: Its constancy and functional basis" (1981) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15916066_Ratio_of_c...>.

Socially, our computational energy is on the high side for vertebrate animals.

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