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Systemd Linger

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61–70 of 96 posts

Re: Systemd Linger

#61
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never found systemd difficult, but I do find prior solutions to be simpler. An init script is easy, and the order is also easy. If people are accustomed to UNIX systems, the sysvinit is better. For people who never experienced those systems, systemd is their friend. No need to use UNIX tools when Systemd ships with batteries included.

Yeah, init scripts are simple, but things get tricky outside of the happy path. Think of service upgrades/restarts. Once you care about dependencies, then you are back to a graph like systemd's.

If ever handled thousands of servers running Linux with sysvinit, you get quite accustomed to it… and the tricky bits aren’t that tricky.

Re: Systemd Linger

#62
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, systemd is much better documented, way more consistent, and way more reliable than what came before.

I guess it depends on your source of info but I've found what came before was pretty comprehensively & accessibly documented, at least as well as systemd, which - while well documented - suffers from sprawl & overwhelm of the docs. There's just SO MUCH to grok in comparison.

We can argue about which has better docs, but, to me, systems offers a uniformity of practices and a consistency of service offerings that was never the case before.

Ever company used to have to make its own decisions about what logging solution to use. Each one had its own configuration paradigms! Every single daemon had some kind of bespoke /etc/init.d/ script that had its own rules and practices, having either forked off some other skeleton or having been made on it's own at some point.

And then companies wanted to do the right thing and apply some capabilities restrictions to processes. They wanted a little more than out of box security. That results in every company forming and modifying init scripts, changing the configuration paradigms, encoding config directly in or inventing their own new parameterization.

The fact is I don't have to look at docs any more, because everything has a (pleasant) uniformity. The fact is we are worlds better at securing and locking down our processes, because systemd has incredible built in options for capability, sandboxing, and other fantastic security processes.

> There's just SO MUCH to grok in comparison.

There always was before too. Most people skated along the surface, but when some daemon tried to actually have better practices, do some security tightening, operators were in for that exciting rabbit hole of trying to catch up and learn. Or just hand wave it away.

I think this statement really iconifies the systemd resistance really. Yes there is so much (imo: enjoy it, isn't that so great?) It's many many many latent possibilities (for you to over time learn): it's so often what the kernel is offering you, it's well exposed, and you have a pleasant uniform system for harnessing that, that you only have to learn once and which can pay dividends again and again and again once you learn it. Learn once, use many.

Or just ask your LLM. It knows. It will just tell you. It won't have to read docs or source. It knows systemd very well. Because it is something shared, something known. Imo it ought be something treasured.

I'm fine if some day we get rid of systemd. Nothing sacred here. But to attack it, it must be attacked from above. It must be replaced by something with more principled and more capabilities. Same as Kube. Neither is going away, neither will ever be displaced by smaller offerings. The only way out is through, the only way out is up. Godspeed, good luck, have fun.

Re: Systemd Linger

#63
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on your source of info but I've found what came before was pretty comprehensively & accessibly documented, at least as well as systemd, which - while well documented - suffers from sprawl & overwhelm of the docs. There's just SO MUCH to grok in comparison.

We can argue about which has better docs, but, to me, systems offers a uniformity of practices and a consistency of service offerings that was never the case before. Ever company used to have to make its own decisions about what logging solution to use. Each one had its own configuration paradigms! Every single daemon had some kind of bespoke /etc/init.d/ script that had its own rules and practices, having either for…

the oss community has a phobia of having anything in common against all its reimplementations of the same thing. So systemd offers some consistency between distros: bad.

X11 was pretty much standardized, that won't do.... let's invent wayland but make sure that there are multiple incompatible implementations of it!

and so on. I love linux, but this sort of mentality is ridiculous

Re: Systemd Linger

#64
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on your source of info but I've found what came before was pretty comprehensively & accessibly documented, at least as well as systemd, which - while well documented - suffers from sprawl & overwhelm of the docs. There's just SO MUCH to grok in comparison.

We can argue about which has better docs, but, to me, systems offers a uniformity of practices and a consistency of service offerings that was never the case before. Ever company used to have to make its own decisions about what logging solution to use. Each one had its own configuration paradigms! Every single daemon had some kind of bespoke /etc/init.d/ script that had its own rules and practices, having either for…

the systemd init system is complicated but fine. the problem with systemd is how much it wants your computer to itself. e.g. it can only run as PID 1, you aren't allowed to use control groups if you use systemd, it overwrites resolv.conf with its own address, it renames all your network adapters to lennart's preference (he calls them stable names but anyone who actually uses a computer will tell you they change more often now), and it binds itself to syslog

Re: Systemd Linger

#65
post #2

This is why i dislike systemd. Things not working the way I expect means I have to do more work to figure something out.

In my experience, systemd is much better documented, way more consistent, and way more reliable than what came before.

I'm still using sysvinit without anything on top (the default would have been sysvinit + openrc, but I dropped openrc, too complicated for my needs). I find it a lot easier than learning systemd, or learning anything else. To find out what's going on, I just need to open one file: /etc/inittab, and it's all in there. Nothing hidden somewhere else. Nothing undocumented. Simple commands, one after another. There are no dependencies, no conditions, not unless I put them there myself.

Re: Systemd Linger

#66
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on your source of info but I've found what came before was pretty comprehensively & accessibly documented, at least as well as systemd, which - while well documented - suffers from sprawl & overwhelm of the docs. There's just SO MUCH to grok in comparison.

We can argue about which has better docs, but, to me, systems offers a uniformity of practices and a consistency of service offerings that was never the case before. Ever company used to have to make its own decisions about what logging solution to use. Each one had its own configuration paradigms! Every single daemon had some kind of bespoke /etc/init.d/ script that had its own rules and practices, having either for…

> Ever company used to have to make its own decisions about what logging solution to use. Each one had its own configuration paradigms! Every single daemon had some kind of bespoke /etc/init.d/ script that had its own rules and practices, having either forked off some other skeleton or having been made on it's own at some point.

> And then companies wanted to do the right thing and apply some capabilities restrictions to processes. They wanted a little more than out of box security. That results in every company forming and modifying init scripts, changing the configuration paradigms, encoding config directly in or inventing their own new parameterization.

IMHO, any competent sysadmin, when is installing the system, would edit all those templates into the exact shape the system and the user needs. Those file are just that - templates. The fact that overworked company sysadmins started using templates as final configuration and needed something automated instead, doesn't mean that this systemd that is fit for them is also fit for everybody else.

Re: Systemd Linger

#67
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but the scale of systemd features is humongous. It better be well documented. You don't need a user manual for hammer, you do need one for hydraulic press.

> hydraulic press What is there to know? It goes up and down, and don't stick your arm inside...

You'd be surprised to know.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/3389176/Cincinnati-90-Form...

Re: Systemd Linger

#68
This is hideously annoying functionality for anyone heavily using detached tmux and screen sessions. Massively annoyed and such an unfriendly kdea.

Re: Systemd Linger

#69
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not the case. Even relatively simple real world uses involved collections of shell scripts to carefully mount or initialize services in just the right order and would often fail with weird and infrequent timing glitches. With systemd that all becomes explicit, so of course it is awkwardly verbose. That is the whole point and a huge upgrade.

I never used shell scripts for that. Ruby worked much better and easier. No glitches either. I also fail to see how verbosity is a "huge upgrade".

The problem is Ruby is not de-facto installed on most distros. Shell is the "universal" thing, but shell is actually not portable, even across distros. Perl is the only thing I'd qualify as both "sufficiently portal" and "universal". But then you have to write Perl, which nobody wants to do seemingly.

Re: Systemd Linger

#70
post #56
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scale is humongous? Syszemd is not one big thing. It's a collection of small things, each meticoulsouy documented and you can pick and choose. If you still think there is only one Systemd, maybe learn about the tool instead of just talking others after their mouth.

Just the PID 1 manager is multiple times larger in LoC than any alternative. There is no metric in which systemd is more lightweight that I could find.

I'm not sure this is true in practice, if we're counting init scripts themselves. Which we should, because init scripts are code and they often re-implement standard systemd features. Usually in wonky, broken ways.
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