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I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

freddiedeboer.substack.com

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Re: I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

#21

Post by zahlman »

phoghed wrote: post #12
skippyfish wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share your experiment, so that we can draw our own conclusions? I've been paying for Pangram for a long time and have not seen it misbehave even once. I've seen many people attack it, but when I looked more closely, their claims often evidently boiled down to "I want plausible deniability for my own use of LLMs" - i.e., they were clearly posting AI-generated content on social media and just didn't like the po…

Read the OP you goofball, there’s examples right there in it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.

> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".

Re: I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

#23

Post by Ariarule »

embedding-shape wrote: post #18
skippyfish wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asking the parent about their claim. I already have an opinion about the parent post, in which the author is claiming to have not used an LLM to author a 2025 essay that's illustrated with completely unnecessary AI art. Although one doesn't imply the other, let's say that this diminishes my willingness to believe that claim at face value.

What about the piece the author wrote in 2017 and because of an addition of 23% AI generated text, Pangram labelled it as 100% AI written?

More generally, Freddie deBoer has been writing in publicly available works and published for so long that he's obviously more credible for how any previous work was put together than what appears _itself_ to be a hallucination-prone AI system. Granted only one person knows for sure, but the idea that Pangram may have actually been correct all along doesn't pass a laugh test for me.

Do people not recognize names nor search for them before making insinuations? It's not like OP is a brand-new pseudonymous essay on a default-template blog with one or two other posts in the history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredrik_deBoer

Re: I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

#24

Post by johnfn »

timpera wrote: post #6

I recently tried Pangram, created an account, wrote a few lines about how my day went, and it was flagged as likely AI-assisted. It clearly doesn't work. It's especially bad that they keep insisting that it works very well, because thousands of people will probably end up falsely accused of AI usage as a result.

This issue is, like, exactly what the response from Pangram is talking about.

Re: I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

#26

Post by johnfn »

embedding-shape wrote: post #3

> If I want to induce a false positive in TSA's airport scanner, I can put a gun-shaped object in my bag. If I want to induce a false positive in Waymo's stop sign detection system, I can paint my own sign and put it up on a pole. Holy strawman-batman, not only does the founder of Pangram not have a proper response to the actual criticisms, he feels the need to completely make up very different situations to try to i…

Pangram said a bunch of reasonable things and responded very coherently to the point and you skipped over it and misinterpreted this one section.

Re: I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

#27

Post by coldtea »

Those detectors are even more snake oil shit than some early "AI companies" which had people in like India do the actual work.

And the obvious absolute test that would prove its shit - millions of books and posts written pre-AI would unfortunately be in its training already with some date associated, and thus it would not really detect them, it would just know "x text, written pre 2020".

Re: I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

#28

Post by Wowfunhappy »

timpera wrote: post #6

I recently tried Pangram, created an account, wrote a few lines about how my day went, and it was flagged as likely AI-assisted. It clearly doesn't work. It's especially bad that they keep insisting that it works very well, because thousands of people will probably end up falsely accused of AI usage as a result.

The problem is likely that you only wrote a few sentences. Pangram clearly needs more text than that to work, which makes sense.

Pangram should refuse to work with small amounts of text. (Well, I know it already does, but the threshold should clearly be significantly higher.)

Re: I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

#29

Post by coldtea »

amrit3128 wrote: post #11
skippyfish wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share your experiment, so that we can draw our own conclusions? I've been paying for Pangram for a long time and have not seen it misbehave even once. I've seen many people attack it, but when I looked more closely, their claims often evidently boiled down to "I want plausible deniability for my own use of LLMs" - i.e., they were clearly posting AI-generated content on social media and just didn't like the po…

I think most native English speakers are doing well. The one who will face issues are non native ones. I knew English as my third language since about 10 years but I've only truly become somewhat proficient in it in the past 5 or so years, thus it was heavily influenced by LLMs. So who's at fault for this? Me, for speaking like an LLM simply due to my circumstances? Am I now supposed to learn "human" english?

From what I've seen and read it regularly flags native English writing as AI too. Sometimes even changing a few words is enough for it to change the verdict.

It's not command of the english language it flags (for native vs non native to matter), it's stylistic mannerisms, some of which happen to also exist in some direct translation of some foreign patterns for some languages.

But it detects them in a crude manner, missing obvious AI slop, and misflagging human texts.

Re: I wouldn't say Pangram is broken, but I would say that it's brittle

#30

Post by coldtea »

skippyfish wrote: post #7
timpera wrote: post #6

I recently tried Pangram, created an account, wrote a few lines about how my day went, and it was flagged as likely AI-assisted. It clearly doesn't work. It's especially bad that they keep insisting that it works very well, because thousands of people will probably end up falsely accused of AI usage as a result.

Can you share your experiment, so that we can draw our own conclusions? I've been paying for Pangram for a long time and have not seen it misbehave even once. I've seen many people attack it, but when I looked more closely, their claims often evidently boiled down to "I want plausible deniability for my own use of LLMs" - i.e., they were clearly posting AI-generated content on social media and just didn't like the po…

>I've been paying for Pangram for a long time and have not seen it misbehave even once.

How would you know if you just take whatever slop verdict is serves as correct?

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