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AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

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Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#351
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider bonds usury?

Because bonds involve interest. Per Summa Theologica: > To take usury for money lent is unjust in itself, because this is to sell what does not exist, and this evidently leads to inequality which is contrary to justice. https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3078.htm …Aquinas expands the analysis but it is relatively straightforward: all interest is usury. Personally, I find it helpful to imagine two hypothetical persons re…

Sounds like a religious aversion to all lending?

Usury usually means ruinously high interest rates, not all lending.

Unless you’re Muslim, generally.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#352
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't it be a problem given the concentration of the S&P in these companies? At this point these companies make up a huge portion of 401k's for a huge chunk of Americans. How would it affect retirees if they dropped 40-50%, likely taking the market with them?

> How would it affect retirees if they dropped 40-50%, likely taking the market with them? a drop of 40-50% in the S&P 500!? That didn't even happen in the market crash of 1929. It would lead to unemployment and breadlines for the majority of the population, and retirees would get in line like everybody else. Making income from your savings requires a productive economy; bonds are not the answer because bonds also st…

The S&P 500 has dropped over 40% multiple times including 1929. It did it in the 70s, 2000 and 2008/9.

The COVID crash nearly hit those levels also

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the average person also makes a litany of poor financial decisions. $100K student loan balances for an state school arts degree, forgoing health insurance but expecting to receive $200K in care for free, or buying that $80K F150 on a 12.5% loan and rolling in negative equity. The US is second in the world for median equivalised household disposable income, second only to Luxembourg and 10%+ above Norway. For…

Your error here, or the missing piece if we're generous, is what people are spending money on. Health care is astronomically more expensive here. Schooling isn't free after high school. Day care isn't free. Hell, even property taxes are simply 'not a thing' in France or the UK, where the taxes and Council Tax, respectively, are a tiny fraction of what Americans pay in property taxes ---- which, of course, pay for the…

>Your error here, or the missing piece if we're generous, is what people are spending money on. Health care is astronomically more expensive here. Schooling isn't free after high school. Day care isn't free. Hell, even property taxes are simply 'not a thing' in France or the UK, where the taxes and Council Tax, respectively, are a tiny fraction of what Americans pay in property taxes ---- which, of course, pay for the 'free public schools.'

A US worker at the average wage keeps roughly 70 cents of every labor-cost dollar; a worker in Belgium, Germany, France, Austria, or Italy keeps closer to 47 cents, even before you add in the effect of VAT. Nobody in Europe is getting those services you mentioned for "free" - you're just making everyone else pay for them with taxing their labor. You almost connected the dots when it came to property taxes paying for public services, but missed that Europe assesses income taxes.

>Now, let's talk about insurance, that's also much higher. In states like California and Florida, home insurance is through the roof, in some states like NJ and NY, car insurance is through the roof. Both going up way above inflation (like the items in my first paragraph).

This is a bundle of issues. As a quick list, compare the size/value of an average property in California or Florida to a property in Europe, assuming they even own the property (remember, Europe's home ownership rate is lower than Florida's). Same goes for car ownership costs: American cars are larger, more expensive, driven more, and are more exposed to damages from uninsured motorists, because states like NY, NJ, and CA think it's racist to enforce uninsured (or even unlicensed) motorist laws. Just like health insurance, allowing free-riders on insurance systems is financially disastrous.

>You might counter with energy costs are much higher in these European countries (and similar ones like Germany, Benelux, etc), and the purchasing power might be higher, but the wages are so so much lower.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Yes, Europeans can get a number of services paid for by their neighbor, but it doesn't make them "richer" by any reasonable measure. Quantifying standard of living is incredibly difficult, because even as this exchange shows, people will value different things differently. But broadly speaking, my original point still stands: Americans should not be struggling to live in America, absent poor personal decisions, particularly if you're willing to lower the standard of living to that of an average European (a smaller rented property, driving far fewer miles in a compact car, no air conditioning, etc, etc).

>That said, this trope of people misspending their money needs to consider this outrageous costs of things that many people around the world never need to think about. The shitty wages in France are overshadowed by so many essentials being available without a high cost or any cost in some cases.

What outrageous costs are those? Community college remains very affordable, and costs for 2 years at a state school can be managed, especially against the greater lifetime earning potential in America. Healthcare costs OOP is capped at $9,200 on an ACA plan, which can be nearly free for middle to lower income brackets, and that debt itself is basically unenforceable in most cases these days, assuming you truly don't have the assets to pay.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally doesn't matter if drops 50% in a year. That is a paper loss and you have years worth of cash you can spend while waiting for it to recover. If you panic-sell at the bottom of that market then that's on you. It isn't necessary in order to pay the bills. What you propose takes on a huge amount of inflation risk. How are you hedging that risk? A guaranteed yield doesn't mean you aren't getting poorer. Obses…

> That is a paper loss and you have years worth of cash you can spend while waiting for it to recover. not if you're 80 dude...

Retiring at 80 requires very different financial planning than retiring at 65.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many historical societies, religious prohibitions on usury meant the charging of interest of any kind . Jump in a time machine to 1515 and ask Martin Luther, or to 1260 and ask Thomas Aquinas, they'd tell you it's sinful. And in the present age, a fair number of Islamic folk consider interest against their religion's rules. So there's a Halal finance industry where, for example, you can get a "murabahah contract"…

the letter but not the spirit, like Amish workers using batteries

It's concretely different. If the house becomes worthless, the "borrower" can walk away from the contract, owe nothing, and the bank keeps the house. The bank had better consider the value of the house, not just the ability of the "borrowed" to pay, when issuing this contract.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is either that, or they have tons of debt. (Sometimes both!) The average person is struggling in modern America.

Because the average person also makes a litany of poor financial decisions. $100K student loan balances for an state school arts degree, forgoing health insurance but expecting to receive $200K in care for free, or buying that $80K F150 on a 12.5% loan and rolling in negative equity. The US is second in the world for median equivalised household disposable income, second only to Luxembourg and 10%+ above Norway. For…

Victim blaming. It always works, whether on HN or Reddit. And why, pray tell, is the system set up so that all the things you obviously should do are bad decisions?

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They improved the efficiency of coal?

Absolutely. Early engines were so inefficient that they could basically only be used in coal mines.

I'm no expert, but burning coal inside a coal mine sounds like a really bad idea for several reasons.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#359
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We haven't even started with a lot of things were we need a lot more compute: Your real personal agent which knows you and helps you like "good morning elmer2, your calendar invite for dinner is today, you will need to leave at 18:18 if you want to use your normal public transport route per train. I put an alarm in your phone for you" Agents to agents Agentic teams. Finetuned models for everything like Java/spanish c…

This is going to sound a bit facetious, but I'm almost certain the Gmail / maps integration on my Samsung galaxy in 2014 did that.

Yeah, pre-Apple-Intelligence Siri definitely already did that specific example.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#360
post #45
post #23

Are they really "trying to hide" this debt? I think it's pretty common knowledge that a lot of these companies are using debt/bonds for funding. The debt not showing up where the author wants is a reporting formality not an attempt to hide it.

I think the point is that it’s not showing up on the standard financial filings. If you were to pull the annual reports for these companies, you wouldn’t see it. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to find it. Obviously, it is otherwise the article wouldn’t have been written. But you’re going to have to go the extra mile. To be clear, none of this is illegal. It’s just covered in the advanced CFO accounting class.

I can't assess if it's illegal, and it sounds like typical structuring for high-capital assets. But it also somewhat subvert the spirit of requiring financial filings for public companies in the first place. Investment markets are built on the principle that every investor should have the same public understanding on material matters to the business - and large expenditures or lease committments should really make the disclosure. If nothing else there is a self-dealing/self-enrichment of principals risk and watering down of investment if something underhanded is going on with these deals - as has happened in the past (e.g. WeWork, reportedly some cases in Amzon too)
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